First, you ignore the part about them not really caring a whit about the Palestinians. For which I would turn to the empiric proof that the Arabs themselves have treated the Palestinians with distain until they started getting rocked by the Israelis. Second, if your statement IS true then it also disproves your argument that they are so concerned about starving Iraqi children. For if they WERE concerned with starving Iraqi children they would dislike the other non-Arab powers (Russia, France, GB) at least as much as the US.
The governments are probably feeding their people lies. The people in power here have no reason to tell the truth. That would challenge their power and authority. I'm sure they hate us for what we do but they really don't know what we do. We don't even know what our government does all the time. When 911 first happened, US, Britain, most of Europe didn't have a very high opinion of the Middle East, so does it surpirse anyone that we're blowing things up over there and they don't like us either. When we got the facts, we changed opinions and narrowed our scope. Hopefully, they will see this for what it is one day. And those countries are backwards, but not because they are not like us. They wanted and tried for years to get their acts together on their own. Even when England took over, they tried to take it back. It's not that they didn't want democracy, necessarily. They wanted to be free. They wanted to be their own, without Europe. Some countries did quite well, like Turkey. Others, like Iran, never really got it. Saudi Arabia is the only rich country that shares its wealth with the people, as far as I know. And as far as their feelings towards GB, they hated GB more than they hate the US now for many years. GB stole their countries from them. To them, they probably think that that's what the US is trying to do now also.
Of course they'll be the first ones running to us when they need help. I'm not going to lose any sleep over them thinking we're arrogant and such. It's just the nuts that want to fly planes into buildings that disturb me. On a random note, Saddam Hussein has gotten on my last nerve. Nothing in particular, he's just annoying.
glynch: Maybe they don't hate the Euros because the Euros are (unwittingly) bankrolling their terrorism apparatus? Palestinians “Lose” $50m Payroll DEBKAfile Special Report 26 February: Just over three weeks ago, Palestinian Authority paymasters, about to hand out January wage packets to civilian and security personnel, were taken aback to find that the $50 million earmarked for the purpose had gone missing. At a loss, they asked their bosses what to do and were told there was nothing for it but to take the problem to Yasser Arafat. However, in the top man’s presence, no- one said a word. Every one of those staffers knew exactly who had taken the money and what it was spent on: Arafat’s latest Fatah-Tanzim terror cycle, already referred to by insiders as The Palestinian Tet Offensive. Read the whole story at: http://www.debka.com/ To Others: Just to clear it up, the vast majority of the populace in the region is dirt poor. In Saudi, unless you're a member of the Royal family, you're dirt poor. In Syria, unless you're affiliated with the Baath party, you're dirt poor. In Egypt, there is a small middle and upper class, but the masses are dirt poor. In Yemen, you're dirt poor. The only exception to this is the GCC states (UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc), where most of the populace is fairly rich. Generally speaking, though, unless you are tied to the ruling regime or a part of the wealthy (oil-dependent) elite, you're dirt poor. Princess: Their governments are most certainly feeding their populations lies - that is the main problem here. Even so-called "allied" governments regularly feed their populations lies; for example, the fact that 15 of the hijackers were Saudis has largely gone unreported by the Saudi press. It should be pointed out that with the exception of Al Jazeera, every single middle eastern press (except for the Israeli press) is a state-run enterprise. And Al Jazeera is hardly unbiased (you could call it Osama TV, and you wouldn't be too far off). They are in general little more than governmental propaganda organizations who spew a constant stream of anti-US/anti-Israel bulls*it on a 24-hour basis. They do this to deflect anger away from their own despotic regimes, and it works. Problem is, we get the hard end of it... Unfortunately, we cannot force their governments to stop doing this. Personally, I think it's a good reason to withdraw support for their regimes...
treeman, Are you sure about the Saudis being dirt poor? My professor lived there and has said the Saudi government has so much money that it gives it away. The rumor about cutting people's hands off for stealing is true. However, it rarely happens and only after repeated offences. She said more likely, they'll ask you why you need to steal. And if you really don't have enough money or food or anything, they'll give it to you so you don't have to steal. That's the first hand account our class got. She's not of royality either. I was just wondering where you got that information. And to anyone on here, I have to do a research paper for my History of the Modern Middle East class and topics are due tomorrow. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Princess: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html http://www.worldbank.org/ (the World Bank's Saudi page is down right now, but you can probably try later) On the surface, it looks like the average Saudi is fairly well off (about $10,500 per capita income), but the stats are deceiving. There are roughly 30,000 members of the extended Royal family; all of them are well cared for. An average yearly allowance might be in the range of $1-$3 million per member. Those associated with the oil and construction industries (who may or may not be part of the House of Saud) are also very well off. This is where Osama's daddy made his money... If you're a Shiite, then you're dirt poor - and the country has a large Shiite population (maybe a majority, don't remember). The Saudi form of Wahabbiism dictates that Shiites are to be treated pretty much as infidels are. If you're not connected to the Royal family, the oil industry, or the construction industry, then you're almost certainly dirt poor. Saudi imports alot of labor as well (from Africa and Asia mostly), which takes jobs away from Saudi citizens; this is one of the reasons so many want to see the House of Saud fall. As for wanting to see the Royal family fall, that's a pretty widespread sentiment among the populace - it is not a popular government. It isn't so much that the regime is repressive (it is), but that it treats its subjects as second class citizens economically. The average man on the street isn't getting a penny from the Royal family. The Royal family gives money away to friends and family - not to the general public. It's an exceedingly wealthy country, but there's not much trickle-down to the masses. The Royal family members usually do their shopping here or in Europe. Oh, some research ideas: - Arab-Israeli conflicts (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982) - pick any one and analyze it - First Gulf War (Iran-Iraq) - Second Gulf War (1991) - Nasser's career, Sadat's career, Mubarak's rise (Egypt) - The implosion of Lebanon - The history of the House of Saud - The history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Thanks treeman, although the CIA site didn't tell me much personally, but I just glanced. I have a hard time not believing my prof. She grew up there and has her PhD in Middle Eastern Sutdies I believe. She has been one of the most unbiased, non-judgemental people I've ever met. My aunt also works with a Saudi Arabian woman who has similar accounts. Maybe they are in the upper class, but why would they lie, especailly to a class? I'll look over those topics. I have until 2:30 tomorrow to decide!
Princess: They probably are in the upper class. If your prof earned a PhD, then I'd all but guarantee that she is connected in some way to the Royals, the oil industry, or the construction industry; the average Saudi family does not have the cash to put their kids through college. The rich ones send them here, of course... The simple, verifiable fact is that the large majority of Saudis are not what we would classify as middle or upper class. Do a search on the subject, or pick up any book on Saudi that is not published by the Royal family - you will find that many Saudis don't have two pennies to rub together. Why would she lie? Profs lie all the time to their students. I know it's not instinctual to question anything they say, but... Well, I had to spend a couple of years unlearning a few things I learned in college. Also, Saudis have been lying to us for decades about a variety of subjects. I am automatically suspicious of anything that any Saudi has to say. Here's the State Department page on Saudi: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/bgn/3584.htm
Like I said, she has been very objective on most issues, especailly controversial ones. I do plan on asking her sometime about this though. We haven't talked much about Saudi yet and we're not actually supposed to know she's Saudi (my roommate already took the class and told me she was). So when we get around to it, I'm sure I'll find out a lot more. Thank you though.
I'm suprised we did that good in the polls. These people are only feed information that serves the interest of those in power. An interesting quote from former president of iran,Hashemi Rafsanjani. I mean come on....After being feed this kind of bull****,no wonder these people hate us. http://www.iranmania.com/news/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=9184&NewsKind=CurrentAffairs
Some people on this BBS will just not acknowledge the truth. That the common man or women in the middle east is poor, and uneducated, and has very little REAL knowledge of world events. They believe what they hear on the streets about the US wanting to fight Islam...why do they hear that? Because FEAR keeps people in power. The ME is a trip back in time for the rest of the world, a time where Kings had all the money and everyone else was a serf. Gosh, I wonder what would happen if they all found out that it was their own people deceiving them. Look at the Afghan people, now that we have liberated them, they sure seem to like us a lot more then they used to. How do you think the average Iraqi citizen would feel when they are liberated and are FINALLY able to speak their mind? All it takes is a little common sense to see what is going on over there. People in power don't want to share it, and to stay in power they blame other governments for their own people problems, all the while lining their own pockets in swiss bank accounts. PATHETIC that some here support this crap. DaDakota
What are you basing this on? Not necessarily saying you are wrong, but if you are basing that statement on our media, be careful. Our media is probably as moronic and biased as everyone else's media. Remember before the war started how all the journalists reported on the poverty and the starving children. Somehow, after 10 wks of bombing, all those formerly-starving, newly-liberated Afghanis were spending money at the local electronics store to buy VCRs and HD-TVs (ok, maybe not HD Tvs, but they were showing the big screens). Back to DoD's earlier jab...we're fed more than our fair share of BS, too. Who really knows what is true?
Interesting how much Iranians despise us, yet 1 in 200 have emigrated (since 1970) to the United States. For perspective, that would be like 1.4 Million Americans moving to another country.
He's probably talking about MOST of the countries mentioned in the polls: ..Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Turkey, Lebanon, Morocco, Kuwait, Jordan and Saudi Arabia... As for Saudi Arabia, they may not live in squalor but it does not seem like they have a free flow of information, either.
Do you mean like East Timor? treeman, I have a question for you (haven, too if you know): I saw an interview a while back on some daytime show with a former UN arms inspector (involved with Iraq) who is against military action...3 or so years ago he was for it. Anyway, he stated that Saddam kicked the inspectors out because they were not really inspecting, but spying (or something along those lines). He said that it was true and he felt bad at the time. He also said that Iraq had no WMD capabilities anymore, that they had cleared everything out. Anyway, I have no idea who he is or what he has written (ha had to have been plugging something), I caught only the end...just wanted to know if you heard anything about this guy or what he is talking about. Anyone seen the mural of Saddam posed as an Assyrian ruler, leading the charge on a chariot? It is great stuff. He also stamps the bricks with his name for any new construction he starts, just like the ancients. Funny how we hate them, they hate us, and the world keeps spinning.
rimbaud: That would be Scott Ritter. He is the only former inspector who apparently believes that... Every single other former inspector is 100% convinced that Iraq has continued its WMD programs, and every single defector who has fled Iraq in the past 3 and a half years has confirmed it. I personally don't think that even Ritter believes it; he's just a publicity junkie. He blew the whistle in '98 on UNSCOM, publicly charging them of spying on the Iraqis. That was actually true - UNSCOM was spying. But you need to understand the context to understand why they were doing so. Iraq had been stonewalling the inspections regime for 7 years at that point. They were regularly caught lying; they'd say that X facility was a medical research lab, and that there was no need for UNSCOM to go there. When the inspectors would try to go to facility X and verify their claims, the Iraqis would file a petition to the UN to stall the inspectors. By the time the petition was denied (they invariably were), the Iraqis would have relocated all of the incriminating materials (documents, equipment, agents); if they had not completed the relocation in time, then they would often physically prevent the inspectors from entering the facility... Sometimes, the inspectors would be literally held at the front door while the Iraqis were moving things out the back door... UNSCOM was forced to adopt clandestine methods in order to catch the Iraqis in the act, and it often worked. Mostly, this was accomplished through paying off informants and encouraging defections. I don't have the figures right off hand, but they destroyed something like 11,000 tons of anthrax alone, as well as large stockpiles of VX, sarin, botulinum toxin, cholera, and plague to name a few. According to defectors, though, UNSCOM didn't even scrape the surface. In 1995 or 1996 (don't remember exactly) the head of their WMD program (Saddam's son-in-law) fled to Jordan and had a nice long sit-down with the CIA... He later returned to Iraq and was executed. But he spilled the beans before he died. But the point is that yes, UNSCOM was spying. Using clandestine methods would be a more accurate term... But they did not start doing so until they realized that the Iraqis weren't cooperating, and never would. It was the only way to accomplish the inspections mission. Minor aside on E. Timor: we did indeed send military advisors and a naval battle group to support the peacekeepers there. The Aussies did most of the ground work, but even they balked until we agreed to provide support. The mere threat of conflict with a US naval battle group (with US ground troops in the background) went a long way in restraining the Indonesian military there...
Treeman, Sounds like the same guy. Understand I was not advocating his position or using him as any proof, just thought his position was odd and thought you would have heard it. I understand about the spying part (and don't really even see it as an issue, since they were supposed to be monitering/inspecting), but I had never heard the "they were completely destroyed" argument. I know that we weakened them, but that is all I believe. In regards to ET, it was just a play off of the "Asian backwater" comment. I know that we eventually did provide aid, but we also aided the other. I don't think that it was for any reason other than no real policy towards the area clashing with money, etc...not trying to suggest anything sinister (unless you want to talk about the media's handling of the whole thing). I used it specifically because it has been used a bit for an example. For a while there (after it had been going on for some time) ET became as popular as Tibet for concerts, bumper stickers, etc. Now it has faded and Tibet stands alone as the top of "cool." I just thought it was funny.
