a few notes . when you say that the 3% is higher for green leading to a lower overall fg percentage you are right . But it also impacts ts % percentage for him positively . As do ft’s for green . These are not necessarily negatives , just context . is there a stat for ppg / league average. Like wrc + for hitters . Where 100 is average . because scoring is easier nowadays . And Mitchell was getting his numbers on a team that was winning 48 and 50 games those years . Yes his teammates were better than greens . But , that’s a lot of added pressure of being the top scorer on a bonafide playoff team . No offense to anyone on our team . But there is absolutely zero pressure out there for y’all. No one expects you to win . Half our fan base is rooting for y’all to lose , because we suck so bad . anyways . These stats need that context . I know you said just for fun .
Absolutely. No question context is important. That's part of trying to evaluate these young kids. Looking at past performances of others who may have put up comparable numbers in similar situations (Booker) and/or put up similar numbers in completely different situations (Mitchell) can often help, I think. I think you're right in that there are certain things that likely made it "easier" for Mitchell and also things that made it "easier" for Green. Hard to quantify those things, really (imo). Just thought it was almost crazy how similar many of those numbers were.
Just looking at that jazz team in Mitchel's second year here are the top players in VORP on that team not including Mitchell: Golbert 26 years of age Favors 27 Joe Ingles 31 Jae Crowder 28 Ricky Rubio 28 Royce Oneal 25 Ya the dude had a much easier time when he joined the league. Makes you really feel sorry for Green.
Oh yeah, no question. But, do agree with Snowcone's point too, in that it's certainly possible you could assume more difficulty in high pressure situations (more competitive games, playoff positioning, etc). Still, overall I'd think Green certainly had it more difficult. One thing I don't think many ever consider is these kids had never lost in their lives like they have in their brief tenures with the Rockets. That in itself can really mess with one's mentality. The confidence, focus, intensity, etc can all really waver at some point. For those that really watched closely (I know many just couldn't as ugly as it was lol) you literally could see it in the guys' body language. So often they'd be locked in, playing with intensity and focus and at some point just feel like they were hit with the realization they just couldn't really compete and/or were on different pages with each other. I've never seen an uglier situation than these last two seasons. Hard not to feel for these kids But as a couple have said, it can change quickly, especially if they get this coaching hire right.
All these comps that I've been seeing here for the past two years, to D. Booker, Zach LaVine, Spyda, etc. and how Green compares to them number-wise in Year 1 and Year 2, they all miss the mark. These are All-Star players who were all drafted mid-first-round, and worked hard to get where they are. I mean Devin Booker was drafted fourth... from his school, after KAT, Cauliflower and Trey Lyles!! If these were players that were expected to set the league on fire from Day One, they wouldn't have fallen in the draft. These are success stories of guys with less obvious talent who overcame and left behind more talented guys who were drafted earlier. In other words: the exact opposite of Jalen Green. There is absolutely no question in nobody's mind that this kid has underperformed his talent level in his first two years. The Scottie Barnes's, Josh Giddeys, Alperen Senguns, etc have clearly performed better and have had more impact on their teams fortunes, even though they all have shortcomings talent-wise. So these comps that y'all are throwing around are meaningless. His first two years were supposed to be better than those guys' first years.
This is of course not true. Anyone who thought that one of the youngest players in the draft with no college experience and a quarter of a G League season was going to set the NBA on fire just isn't connected to reality. Especially on a team that is gutting the roster more aggressively than any other tanking team. We went through an entire season with 0 rim protectors and 0 floor generals. The difference between Green and a high schooler was like 20-30 G League bubble games. He had never even played in front of a crowd expecting a college player or a professional, his first NBA game was the first time in his life there were real stakes. There are no players who have hit the ground running in that situation, so I seriously don't understand what you were expecting. It's like saying you were disappointed in Kobe or KG or T-Mac's rookie seasons. Doesn't make any sense. His second season has been a disappointment from a scoring efficiency standpoint only, and that's an issue that's ailing almost the entire roster so it's obviously systemic. On everything else he has met or exceeded expectations. I think dude you're disappointed cause you were expecting something unrealistic and didn't realize it. Now instead of correcting yourself, you're treating it as though Green did something wrong. It's an illogical conclusion. Here's an example of a poster who understands that age and experience matter when making an assessment:
Yes, correct, however I wasn't alone! Let's put aside that he was voted as most likely ROY prior to the 21-22 season in the GM poll. Let's put that aside. You know who else had highly unrealistic expectations besides me: Jalen Green. "Focus on my craft and get that ROY", "Goal for Year 2 is to be an All-Star", "We have one of the better backcourts in the NBA", etc. We're not in disagreement. It's obvious that he didn't perform, didn't put the League on notice like Ja, or Luka, and you can't deny that. Youth is a mitigating explanation that you bring up , and I agree with that.
Sure you can point to other people who are wrong about their expectation, but I'm just discussing that your projection was wrong. There was no effort issue, he was just too raw and you/they/we didn't realize it. Maybe they thought the g league bubble experience was more than it was, but whatever the excuse with the benefit of hindsight we can see that it was obviously wrong. For me on day 1 it was simple like: Oh, he's really raw. The scouting reports were off. That simple. No frustration. Just re-calibrated expectations instead of digging my heels into my own erroneous expectation.
Right. There are two separate things that people bring: 1. Raw on offense: true, but improving. 2. No effort on defense, boxing out for rebounds, fighting through screens, even getting back sometimes, etc. That's the "effort" part that bothers me.
I'm just discussing your original statement that he didn't meet expectations his first two years. I don't think even the most optimistic Green supporter expected him to be anything on the defensive end his first two seasons. So that wasn't him not meeting expectations. So we can say in summary, other than the systemic scoring efficiency talking point, Jalen has met or exceeded all expectations. If you were expecting a guy to shoot better than Booker/Lavine at the same experience level and gives Corey Brewer type effort on defense - which would result in him being a 23-25ppg efficient two way player at age 21 - then you severely misjudged the situation. You have the benefit of hindsight now and can see how raw he arrived both in terms of his skills and his understanding of winning basketball. I think if you can make an age-sensitive exception for someone who throws food at their teammates in a rage, then you can do the same for Jalen if you want. See my approach is not that you should dislike everyone equally. My approach is that if you can find a compassionate reasoning for KPJ who gives less effort on defense, then you have the capacity to extend that kind of mindset and approach to Jalen since they're all our team's players and we want them all to thrive.
You were and are still wrong... Please stop acting like you can have an objective conversation when it comes to Jalen. I still remember your comments regarding his masculinity and nails and hair... and equating all that to the fact he doesn't have "That Dog" mentality. You were wrong then and are still wrong. Doesn't mean you can't come back from some of the silly statements you've made, but I for one have not seen you retract any of those and as I do with most posters who make such personal attacks on players (or other posters), I will continue to put your takes on Jalen in the context of a Jalen hater.
lol I remember this. Definitely a solid reason not to listen to a single basketball opinion this guy expresses.
https://bbs.clutchfans.net/threads/...r-girly-to-be-a-successful-nba-player.313347/ An entire thread dedicated to @NewAge ridiculousness. I’m embarrassed to live on the same planet as him.
What do I have to retract? What I said was true: the guy looked feminine and played soft in Year One. In Year Two there is unquestionable progress: nice clean haircut, correlates with more aggression, absorbing contact, getting to the line, and dogged 0ne-on-one defense when he wants to, like when we beat PHO and he locked Book on the final possession. I think I have been pretty objective and really calling things that are obvious to everyone. Problem is that many shy from saying and agreeing with obvious things, because of the angry woke mobs here creating drama from everything.
I remember an opposing team commentator once a during a game against the rockets something along the lines of " You could sit in the upper nosebleeds and watch 10 seconds of Jalen green and see the talent bursting out of him" 10 seconds of watching Green should have shut down Corey Brewer comparisons. Literally look at his first two buckets of his NBA career at age 19 at the very beginning of this video and try to show me at any point Corey Brewer possessing any amount of level of talent close to that.
There's no woke mob. We're just not biased by appearances like you. He can suck or be good with whatever hair and nails. You think you're clever or brave by sharing these poorly thought out ideas, but that's just lazy and erratic thinking. You're claiming a correlation that doesn't exist anywhere but in your mind. It's scientifically, objectively not true what you're saying. You're not taking any risks and no one is attacking you for anything. You're just saying something baseless out loud and when the backlash comes you make up a story that it has to do with a woke mob. You made up a narrative about hair/nails correlating with better defense even though a few posts ago you said he gives no effort on defense. You think throwing in "when he wants to" is going to make us forget that you went in SO hard on him being a defensive 0 for two years? Then you just changed your mind and made it conditional to suit your new post? That's messed up man. You have problems man. So disappointed and I know you don't give a sh*t, but it's so f*cking disappointing. Good luck in life dude.
Damn I didn't realize how much muscle he's gained since then. Promising, hope to see that progression continue.
I can’t speak for others, but when I have brought up Brewer it was always qualified that there are similarities and differences. Plus you’re neglecting what I wrote about Brewer: winner. 2 NCAA titles, NBA title with Mavs, key hot in the Rockets 2015 playoff run… No need to act so offended.
