Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff considers homosexuality to be immoral

Good points,
thanks, sincerely thanks

 

You have a different understanding of the bible than many Christians that I know. I've said it earlier and I will say it again. I dont' believe the bible is just a list of rules, and do's or dont's.

You may have a different understanding of it, but it is odd that you would condemn other people's own understanding of something that you clearly disdain.

 

It happens often enough. For every instance one sees in the news, there are many and many under the radar. And I don't intend to imply it is just because of Christianity, or another religion, attempting to impose their beliefs and morality on others by saying what they do is "wrong," that they will go to "Hell," and that what they do is a perverse choice, with the ability to be "saved," if only they would give it up, become "normal," and turn from the "dark side." (although that happens a LOT) No, far too often it is their own inner torment of knowing they somehow disappoint their parents, relatives and so on, that they are different, somehow, from others, and because of a lack of education, feel they are consumed by "demons," instead of merely being born that way.

Yes, that happens and rarely, in my opinion, turns out well, in the long run, and leads to humiliation and tragedy. We are what we are. Better to accept what we are, than to pretend to be what we are not. I'm lucky to be what is considered "normal," sexually, these days. (some might disagree! ) And so many gay people have "come out of the closet," and have found peace with themselves, if not peace from the world. Some day in the future, I hope the world will give them equality, and the ability of living without torment from what I consider to be the misguided.

They should be left to live their lives as they wish, with the rights others supposedly normal possess.



D&D. Irony Abounds.

 

It is amazing how much of your post could also apply to adultery when you think about it.

 

hotballa, one isn't born an adulterer. Not that I'm aware of, at any rate!



D&D. Clutch City!

 

no, but some men and women are born to not be monogamous no matter how hard they try.

 

Whether you beleive it or not, the Bible is definitely a list of laws (at least the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament).

You can interpret the Bible (or any book) however you want, but then you must admit that you beleive homosexuality is a sin not because the Bible says it is, but because that is how you choose to interpret the Bible. If you want to bring your personal biases into your reading of the Bible, fine. Most (if not all) Jews and Christians do this whether they admit it or not. That is why those who say homosexuality is wrong, to me, are nothing but bigots and hypocrites.

MadMax-
I may not understand Christianity, but that is only because no Christian has ever adequately explained the logic of their beleif to me. I doubt they ever will. So I am left with my understanding of the Bible that I obtained growing up as a Jew and my own personal research into Christianity. From that, I have concluded that Christians pick and choose parts of the Bible to follow. If I'm wrong here, and you follow the entire Bible, please correct me and get ready to defend the stoning of adulterors, the divinity of Jesus, etc.

rhester-
I appreciate your civil tone, but I still think you are a bigot if you think homosexuality is wrong. You claim you have seen Jesus, but all you've seen is something that you made into a metaphor for Jesus, nothing more. That is what we humans do. We make metaphors to explain our lives. Why not agree with the message of love, forgiveness, etc. that Jesus preached and simply discard your disdain for acts of homosexuality?

 

you're misunderstanding what the Bible is. it ain't a rule book.

are you Jewish?

 

sorry to sidetrack, but max an hester, do you guys read the bible for sustenance or do you gain new insights each time?

 

i don't gain new insights EACH time. but i do from time to time. i read it for both, actually.

 

if you can recall, do you mind sharing one or some of the insights you've garnered lately?

 

You're wrong. It is a rule book. And if it weren't, then you would have no reason to think that homosexuality is wrong.

Yes, I am Jewish. I don't beleive in God or Noah's Ark, but I still consider myself a Jew.

 

i'm wrong?? read Hebrews if you want to understand what the old law is about in relation to Christianity. and then read the letter to the Romans.

do you follow the Law, then?? as a Jew I mean. do you stone adulterers? do you stone your children? i mean...as a Jew, aren't those laws much more applicable to you than they are to me as a Gentile?

 

Like I said, I don't beleive in God, so I obviously don't beleive the Bible is God's word. So I don't feel compelled to follow the commandments.

You, however, think that the Bible is the word of God (I'm assuming). God said stone adulterers. God said that the Messiah would be a descendant of David through Solomon.

So my question to you is, why don't you beleive that we should stone adulterors?

Why do you beleive that Jesus is the Messiah?

 

1. i misunderstood you. sorry.

2. here's a good article about the Bible. this tracks how I feel about it, pretty well.
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Bible_Authoritative.htm

3. i won't pretend there's not some measure of faith. there absolutely is. but the prophecies of the Messiah are there and clear, in my opinion. he is the adopted son of Joseph, a descendant of David. he is the son of Mary, a descendant of David. there was so much of Isaiah that matched the story of Christ that many skeptics assumed it was all just added in there....until in 1947, they dug up ancient copies of Isaiah, and damned if those troublesome verses weren't still there.

more importantly..i find Jesus' teachings to be true. I find that it is better to seek peace..that it is better to forgive. that there can be options to address conflict other than fight or flight. i try to follow him.

and i'm not trying to convince you of one thing. just trying to share my perspective. as i said to someone else here recently, there have been a lot of people who came down on the side that Jesus was the Christ that are smarter than you and me....and there are a lot of people who came down on the other side of the issue that are smarter than you and me. and so it will be.

 

That's a little too long for me to read right now. Care to summerize?

The original Hebrew implies that the descendant must be a male blood descendant. Adoption doesn't count. Neither does the maternal line. Most Christians, however, do not ever consider the original language of their holy book, which, to say the least, is problematic.

Also, please cite the specific verse of Isaiah that you are refering to. I am pretty sure that you are referring to a known misinterpretation, but I could be wrong.

AHA! This is so revealing. You find Jesus' teachings to be true because you have preconceived notions of what is true and what isn't. I agree with a lot of what Jesus is purported to have said. I don't agree that homosexuality is wrong. You don't have to beleive that either! See? Examine yourself and your biases and you will grow as a person. Who knows, God may want you to do just that!

Hmm... they may have been smarter than me (whatever that means) but I doubt they've studied the Hebrew texts as judiciously as the throngs of Rabbis who devote their entire lives to the study of not only the written law but the oral too (which is equal to the Torah in importance). I may be biased here, but I will defer to Rabbis over Christians EVERY TIME when it comes to interpreting the Old Testament because I know that they study every word, every letter, every vocal inflection with great depth. I have never seen the same from a Christian.

 

Are you seriously attacking Max's interpretation of the bible (a book you say you don't beleive in??) with your assumptions of what he should take from it? Why?

Though I might (sometimes) dismiss him as a Jesus Freak...the boy has earned a bit of respect on these boards. Chill it.

And Max...

care to explain the invisible kids link in your sig? Is this a church group or something else? (advise to web guys -- fancy flashy designs are super cool -- but try to make sure its not too tough to decypher the message you're trying to put out there -- for us simple folk).

 

1. the bible is an ancient narrative..a collection of stories that tell about the relationship of God to man and vice versa.

2. the bible also says that the birthright is to go the firstborn child. you're being legalistic. he's the son of Joseph in all senses in the world. please don't let something that trivial stop you from going forward and exploring this deeper.

2. there is more than one quote in Isaiah. i'll cite you to a few of them when I get a chance. (or if someone else does it before me, that would be great, too)

3. please stop pretending you know me with your clever "Aha's" you have no idea who i am or to what level i examine myself or my own beliefs.

4. you recongize the earliest Christians were Jews, right? including Saul/Paul who was on the Sanhederin and wrote most of the New Testament. i'm sorry you've only encountered simplistic Christians. here's a link to one of the "smart guys" who did agree with me...i've had the privilege of meeting this man and eating lunch with him. he was born Jewish as well. he's a professor of nano-technology at Rice University. http://www.jmtour.com/?page_id=17 he speaks some to your issues about the law and its relation to the New Testament.

5 by the way...are those rabbis stoning adulterers?

 

yeah. my church is involved with this. it's not church-affiliated, however. there won't be any Jesus freak events, though there might be Jesus freaks like me participating! secular non-profit, as i understand it, which seeks to address the mess in Uganda...particularly in N. Uganda where there is war and children are kidnapped and forced into war. they protect the children by, each night, moving them out of the villages and into areas where they can be protected by the national army. AIDS is obviously a huge issue there, as well. truly awful circumstances.