Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff considers homosexuality to be immoral

That was a great post you made a while back. Despite saying things like my post above, I sincerely believe that people like you on here have changed my perspective about a lot of things for the better.

 

Good points.

I believe gay people exist.
I think they have reason to have sex.
I can't change anyone and I don't know of one case where I did.
I don't encourage anyone to be someone they are not, that leads to mental illness.

I understand what you are saying.

Realize I am not on a crusade, I could be wrong and I am glad you shared that with me.

 

since homosexuality is a sin and all sins are wrong. rather than debate their relative moral despicability, can someone tell me why homosexuality is persecuted more than murder, theft, or any another sin?

 

I will guess on this,
partially out of hypocrisy and partially from meanness.

hypocrisy- we tend to point out the sins we hate in others and excuse the sins we love ourselves

meanness- we tend towards hate rather than compassion.

Compassion is not tolerance, compassion goes deeper to the genuine love and value of a person.

Tolerance is not always right. Compassion is always right.

I've probably said enough here for one thread.

 

I think watching American Idol and eating at Taco Bell is wrong. I've tried watching American Idol and even ate at Taco Bell and can't stand either. I can even cite you health and socialogical arguments why watching American Idol and eating Taco Bell is wrong. All of that though is my opinion and in the end I recognize that as a free and pluralistic society it is fine that people watch American Idol and eat at Taco Bell.

You have a right to not like homosexuality and to consider those acts sins. Its not my place to tell you what you should consider sinful. You certainly shouldn't be denied the right to express that view. What I can do though is to ask you to reconsider your views.

You often point out how you were once lapsed and were born again. While I wasn't born again my thinking about homosexuality has certainly changed. At one time I thought it was degenerate and vile and that homosexuals were weak willed perverts. When I finally got to meet some more homosexuals I realized that my cartoon version of them was no more accurate than Borat's version of Jews. Homosexuals could express love and fidelity or could cheat and be hedonists as much as heterosexuals. I also got to understand how the such attitudes that consider homosexuality perverse and a sin could cause so much pain. While I'm not a homosexual I don't need to be to be accepting and understanding.

I take you at your word that you know people who were formerly practicing homosexuals and now no longer do. That said though consider that for every cured homosexual there are many who lead lives of pain and shame for trying to lead a life that they aren't. I can believe that many people who think homosexuality can be cured are doing what they feel is best but at the same time it is that type of attitude that causes a lot of pain. Its like telling someone who is left handed that it is wrong for them to use their left hand.

You are entitled to your belief and you shouldn't be persecuted for that belief but please consider how that belief might be causing pain to others.

 

I'll stay out of the Taco Bell debate, but I agree with the part I quoted. Homosexuality isn't something you can discard like a shirt, or a pair of pants. It's something you are born with. Far too often, men (as an example) attempt to live heterosexual lives, become married and have children, only to ultimately return to what was their natural sexuality, that as a homosexual. Left behind are shattered marriages, grieving wives, and confused, devastated children.

Trying to get people to be what they are not, fundamentally, is a terrible mistake, in my opinion, and only leads to tragedy.



D&D. Be all you can be.

 

great post sishir

 

Not speaking for anyone in particular, but I believe that most conservative Christians simply want peopel to stop thinking that homosexuality is not a sin. We understand all REAL change comes not from us ourselves. It would be foolish for any of us to try to convince someone that they're not really thinking about something.

As for changing anyone to what they're fundamentally not. I think we Christians have been trying to do that for 2,000 years

BTW Deck, u don't really think we'd have these kinds of convos do you?

Gay: I like men
Me: no yo don't
Gay: I guess I don't, I'm gonna kill me the fool who told me I did.

 

I think all passionate ideologues of any stripe have this same complex. I wouldn't accuse pastor of invoking Roman lion-throwing unless they were inciting the parishoners towards some equally violent response. If they're doing it to motivate letter-writing campaigns, civil suit filings, press releases or political endorsements, then it's probably a fair (and effective) analogy, because the intended actions undercut and neutralize the original rhetoric. If they're trying to get them to blow up a federal building or shoot 50-caliber rifles at FBI agents before setting themselves on fire, then there's an issue.

 

Great post. Thanks.

 

Again with the equating of homosexuality to violent, destructive behavior. That is why you Christians have no credibility. The Bible absolutely does differentiate between sins. Homosexuality is punishable by death (I beleive). Other sins are punished differently. That is the word of God (according to you). God doesn't say, "stone the adulteror until this guy Jesus comes, then don't do it anymore." It says, "stone the adulteror" (or whatever the wording is).

And tell me, when we win a battle, are we supposed to take the widows of our dead enemies, detain them, and then rape them several weeks later? Hey, that's what the Bible says we're supposed to do.

What pure crap. Jesus fulfilled the law? So if I don't murder someone, the law is fulfilled and we shouldn't punish murderers anymore? Jesus is not the Messiah as described in the Bible. There is no mention of any sort of devine savior. Good try though. Ya'll have perpetuated this ruse because people care more about what they are told to beleive than what they come to beleive on their own.

Why do you beleive in this devine Jesus? Have you seen him? Have you been presented with compelling evidense of his existance? Or is it because you had a void in your life that was conveniently filled by this imaginary figure who will somehow "save" you from yourself.

Sorry, but Christianity is a joke.

 

You can disagree with his stance on homosexuality but there's no need to go off and bash Christianity and the Bible. That's a completely different debate and if you are going to make that debate, I suggest you be a little more respectful because no one will respect your viewpoint with that kind of post.

 

Yea, I'm sorry for going off like that. It was uncalled for.

However, those, like rhester, who are self-admittedly "set in their ways" and feel unfairly demonized for their bigoted view of homosexuality, often use the Bible and the supposed teachings of a supposed man-diety as a pretext for their bias.

Well, if you think homosexuality is wrong because the Bible tells you it is, then you damm well better back up every word in that book (Book?) because if you don't, you are nothing but a hypocrite; in other words, if the only criterion for the truth of something like, "homosexuality is wrong," is that the Bible says it is, then everything the Bible says must be considered true. That means you gotta stone adulterors and all the other nasty stuff.

And if you do actually beleive that everything in the Bible is true, then you better tell my why the Bible is true.

When you do that, I'll stop calling you a bigot.

I think that's fair. Actually, I know it.

 

how is that fair? someone can believe in their religious text and believe it is accurate without necessarily believing in your interpretation of it.

and its faith. theres not necessarily a perfectly logical explanation for it. and they don't have to justify their viewpoints to anyone else as long as they aren't attempting to enforce their viewpoints on anyone else.

 

one thing I dont understand, and was the major factor in my seperation from the church of my youth, is...

Why do the religious folks feel the need to impose their beliefs on others who dont want it?

No one is saying you cant believe what you want, all we are saying is let us lead our lives the way we choose, by our values and morals.

If someone feels they are attracted to the same sex, why do the religious feel the need to keep them from living their lives in peace?
They didnt ask for your morals, and they dont particularly care that you consider it a sin.
They arent tryin to tell you what to believe, they just want you to leave them alone.

Why can the religious not do these things?


rhester, with all due respect to you(and I do have alot of respect for you)...I really get the feeling you are avoiding Sishir's points.

 

You may be right. I would be glad to meet and discuss this. I find it far better with such serious topics to sit down and talk. I don't have any bone to pick with those who feel as you do.

I live in the Houston area.

I have seen Him, in my mind, my heart so to speak.

 

Wait a second. You've picked out a few scripture verses and you assume you know Christianity. Did you pull those from the context of a website critical of Christianity? Or did some disgruntled college professor share those with you once? And then from that, you make some absolute and degrading statements about "you Christians" and the faith in general.

But rhester is the one without credibility?

In the words (and heavy accent) of Ozzie Guillen...."pfffftttt....please."

 

If I can defend Rhester here. Christianity is a proselytizing religion and as part of being a Christian is to share the good news. Rhester as a pastor is particularly compelled to do so and in a pluralistic society I don't see any problem with doing so. Where things get problematic is when Christians, or any other religious group, seeks to express their values through law and politics and I think Christians as the majority religion in this country have been prone to do. Rhester to his credit isn't asking that his religious views on homosexuality be enshrined in law and is very clearly stating this as his own religions views. He's not seeking to impose them but is expressing his own opinion. Its an opinion that I don't agree with but he's free to it.

Rhester sorry to talk about you in the third person. In regard to my previous post. Again I believe you are entitled to your belief and not being a Christian I'm not the person to argue for whether homosexuality is a sin. What I am saying is that while your belief is one that you believe is correct it is a belief that causes a lot of pain and pain that I believe is unnecessary. The attitude that homosexuality is wrong has torn apart families, has humiliated and shamed people, and in some cases has even led to violence.

While you may not equate homosexuality to being left handed and don't consider that God would hate people for being left handed there are many homosexuals who consider their sexuality as innate as being left handed and not something that can be changed. For example in many cultures, incluing European ones, left handedness was considered wrong and parents forced left handed children to use their right hand. With training you can learn to use your non-dominate hand for a variety of things but its rarely easy and I've heard causes some developmental problems. Parents who forced their children to be right handed weren't doing it out of hate but out of love of what they thought was best for their children but it turns out this was unnecessary and was a needless effort.

Homosexuality might not be as obvious as left handedness but consider the example you raised earlier. Imagine two guys having sex. For most of us that seems repugnant and you cite that as why homosexuality is wrong. Consider though if most of us think that is repugnant why would people engage in that? If something the majority of society seems so wrong is still engaged in and even sought out wouldn't that point out a very strong and innate compunction to do that beyond a mere choice of what is pleasurable.

The next point though is what is the real harm done by homosexuals? If two adults of the same gender love and respect each other where is the harm? As long as they are adults they are not exploiting each other so even though homosexuality is frequently mentioned along the lines of such things as pedophilia and bestiality it is fundamentally different from those as those by their nature imply exploitation by one party. Homosexuality is no more exploitive than heterosexuality.

Again you are entitled to your beliefs but I consider how those beliefs can bring pain to others and pain that might not be necessary. Not being a Christian I don't know the Bible well enough but it seems to me that there are many Christians who disagree with your view that it is sinful or wrong.