Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff considers homosexuality to be immoral

I think it is a horrible mistake to send children to military school, but I don't want to oppress people who do and I even understand often why they do it. They are equal human beings who take actions that I disagree with. When people cheer for the Dallas Mavericks, I can say I think they are making a mistake by being fans of such a bunch of boring floppers and their media-obsessed owner. That doesn’t mean I want to persecute them.

Following the logic here if I don’t gush about how great the Mavs are and support the practice of rooting for the Mavericks, then I am discriminating against Maverick fans. I can accept Mavericks fans as equal and valid human beings without supporting their decision to root for the Mavericks. It may not even be a choice. They may have been born in Dallas. I can understand that and expect them to root for the Mavs without endorsing their support of the Mavericks.

Other examples would be people who voted for Bush, especially the second time around. I think those people are beyond understanding, but I don't want to send them all to Gitmo or brand them with a giant scarlet 'B'. They are other human beings with whom I have a philosophical difference. That's fine. We disagree. That is not persecution. I won't refuse to shake their hands or advocate purges or treating them like untermenschen. Unless they act like Trader_Jorge or basso, I won't even assume that they are bad people, but rather they just did something that I don't particularly approve of.

All sorts of people disagree with all sorts of other people in general terms every day, and it is not persecution under any definition that I know of.

Can people really not see this?

 

They are not people you have a "philosophical difference" with. They are gay. That is what you can not see.

 

I am stuborn. For you, KingCheetah, I have changed it.

 

I guess you really don't get it. Nobody kills themself because they are deeply troubled about being Mavs fans. Nobody kills themself (unfortunately) because they deeply regret voting for Bush.

Many homsexuals have killed themselves because of attitudes about their sexual orientation.

Do you see the difference? Do you see how you are trivializing the plight of gay persons?

 

i sent you an e-mail, did you get it?
anywho, it's obviously really freakin' hard for both sides to understand the other. this is a touchy and complicated issue. can't be summed up with a CHRIST PEOPLE!, if you ask me.

 

Otto is saying dissaproval doesn't mean persecution. People are still free to hold prejudicial thoughts as long as they don't act on them that's probably the best we can hope for in society.

 

I don't think I have been clear about what the bible says about homosexuality.

First the bible doesn't say for men not to love one another, deeply. It says the opposite. Sex is not a part of a bible definition of love. You can love someone deeply without having sex. There are several intense very loving relationships between men described in the bible-
David and Jonathon, Jesus and John, Paul and Timothy

The scriptures about homosexuality are strictly dealing with sexual activity.

What is forbidden in scripture is for a man to put his **** in the *** of another man and copulate. This is described as wrong.

I love men in my church deeply. I hug the men in our church much more than the women. I don't have sex with either (except my wife )

In Sodom the men wanted to have sex with the male messengers God sent.
In Leviticus men are told not to have sex together.
In Romans men are warned not to burn with sexual lust for one another.
In 1 Cor. we are warned that those who commit sodomy will not enter heaven

Jesus strongly encouraged the men to have the deepest and strongest love for one another.

What is not being fully considered here is everyone is defending the 'love' between two men as if that is all there is to the issue. When the actual sex taking place is being justified by the 'love'. I personally do not believe that is a reality in the gay community. Every gay I have spoken with about partners has admitted to multiple partners I think I read a clinical study several years ago that stated that the average number of partners a gay man has is 20+. I will try to look up that study. If I am remembering correctly, the reality is that the gay community is sex first, true love second. I could be wrong. I don't have the data in front of me.

There are several views to have about two men (or women) having sex (my comments below are in the context of homosexual sex)
Your own view could go in one of these categories-

1. You don't really care and don't mind others doing it as long as they don't try to involve you- you don't want to be hit on (but you pretend to support this behavior)
2. You don't really care and feel fine if you were hit on (those of you who don't care if the bar you go to is gay or not)
3. You feel everyone should have sex any way they want, as long as you are not involved or hit on ( again you disdain the behavior but supposedly support those who enjoy the sex)
4. You feel everyone should have sex any way they want, and wouldn't mind being involved if you shared their desires (I question the honesty of this view if you haven't been in the position to have sex with a man and respond)
5. You feel comfortable with two men having sex but since you do not have the desire you avoid situations that might involve you ( here again, this kind of view is not really honest until a man tries to lock tongues with you- then you get an honest picture of how you feel)
6. You feel uncomfortable with two men having sex, but want them to be able to love each other. (you may have a bible perspective but don't know it)
7. You believe men are born homosexual and are forced to repress their sexual desires and you are glad when that time comes when they can express their sexual desires openly and are free to engage in the sex. ( these men who are only attracted to other men because of the 'gene' cannot help themselves and they cannot reproduce. You are thankful for those born with the bi-sexual gene (keeps the homosexual gene going?). It is amazing how many 'heterosexuals' support gay 'rights' and yet would react to being hit on. (Is that you? honestly?) Could I ask you honestly when you think of a man copulating with another man is your feeling repulsive or 'that's cool' If it is all genetic then it is normal and no one could be repulsed by the behavior. BTW since it is normal did you wonder if your own baby was gay or straight? Hey if a beautiful woman comes up to you and trys for a little kiss on the lips you probably feel pretty heterosexual and you can confirm it if a man comes up and puckers up to you and you feel 'whoa- not normal' Maybe heterosexual genes naturally react to the homosexual gene? That sounds more moral than normal.
Unless of course you were born with that 'bigot gene'
8. You do not believe two men copulating is right, but you understand the love they either need or feel.
9. You do not believe two men copulating is forgiveable.
10. You hate 'em

There are obviously many other views and opinions.

I said all that to say this- Based upon my own experience the most homophobic, homosexual bashing, persecution has come from non Christians in society.

I have witnessed 'rednecks' (who never darken a church door on Sunday) being serverly abusive to homosexuals,

I have witnessed motorcycle gangs abusing gays, they weren't Christian.

I have heard the workplace gay jokes- but not among real Christians.

I have heard a group of men in the black community verbally threaten physical violence against homosexuals (they were outside a bar and sure didn't appear Christian- I didn't ask though).

In 27 years of attending churches I can't think of one instance I heard one abusive word towards a homosexual from a Christian, except the 'it gives me the creeps' or 'it is an abomination against God'

I have heard some of the TV preacher 'junk' hate talk that repulses me.

I wonder how many defending homosexuality have not had your fair share of gay jokes? hypocritical? Just a thought. I don't make gay jokes or hang with those who do.
The bible commands men to love one another. It forbids men to have sex together.

I am out of the closet, I love men.

 

Old Testament, Old Covenant.

Old Testament, Old Covenant.

While the Old Testament has great stories and is the premise for Jesus coming to save the world, weren't all of the old laws thrown out with the New Covenant that was made with Jesus? There are a lot of things that were wrong or right in the Old Testament that are cool in the New.

You are not supposed to burn with sexual lust for men or women according to the Bible unless that person is your spouse.

How is sodomy defined by the Bible because I've never seen it. By today's standard, oral sex is sodomy even if it is with the opposite sex. My other problem with this statement is that the New Testament teaches that all of your sins are forgiven via Jesus. Wouldn't that include sodomy?

Is there any instance of Jesus flat out stating that homosexuality is wrong?

I'm not trying to break your balls, I'm more playing devils advocate even though I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong.

 

i like this post!

i like it better when i pretend you didn't take Christ's name in vain and instead were proclaiming him to everyone here.

 

It's not taking Christ's name in vain; it's referring to religious people.

You know…christ people.

 

oh, yeah...that's totally what i thought.

 

well max. i'm done dicussing this with you because we ain't getting anywhere. besides, i'm being made out the villain here, and that's a load of bull. i'll just respectfully agree to disagree. i'm not a good writer, never have been- prolly why i ended up a visual artist. that being said, rhester illustrated much of what i was trying to articulate with his last post.

 

i thought we quit arguing, yesterday. i haven't posted anything substative on it since.

 

we did. just emphasizing rhester's post. it's an example of the kind of hypocrisy that drives me nuts. it has this seperate but equal vibe.

 

Very Good Points-

 

Hey, I never claimed not to be a hypocrite (or did I?).

I don't think homosexual sex is right.
I try to treat homosexuals the way Jesus would.
I don't vote against them and I don't vote for them.
I do share the message of Christ with them with permission.

BTW- I loved the music video you posted, I thought it was a pentecostal church service until Letterman walked out and blew it for me.

 

This might deserve another thread but I will put it here:

Tony Dungy is against Gay Marriage

http://www.benmaller.com/odd_notes_stuff#137311

Colts coach Tony Dungy said he knows some people would prefer him to steer clear of the gay marriage debate, but he used a speech Tuesday night to clearly stake out his position. Dungy told more than 700 people at the Indiana Family Institute's banquet that he agrees with that organization's position supporting a constitutional amendment that defines marriage as between one man and one woman. "I appreciate the stance they're taking, and I embrace that stance," Dungy said. Local and national gay-rights organizations had criticized Dungy for accepting the invitation to appear at the banquet. The institute, affiliated with Focus on the Family, has been one of the leading supporters of the marriage amendment.


Posted March 21, by Ben Maller
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You know, until there's absolute proof that homosexuals are born the way they are or BECOME the way they are later, no one can be right or wrong. So at this point in time, everyone can formulate an opinion given the information we have. But don't let anyone make you think or feel that you're wrong. Instead, discuss it, gather as much information as you can, and keep working on your opinion until an absolute is reached with regards to the "birth" of a homosexual... THEN, ad only then, can we judge people on their opinions about homosexuals.