Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff considers homosexuality to be immoral

No God can't be proven. God is a logical fallacy. How do you prove the existance of something that is all powerful and is fully shielded from our senses. You can't and no philosopher has ever made a compelling case to prove God's existance. Descartes only succeeded in proving our own existance ("I think therefore I am") but outside of that everything else is technically an unknown. Human logic doesn't take into account the idea of the supernatural.

Look your mode of thinking is just different, period. There are ideas that are above rationality and which rationality doesn't provide an answer for. Faith is a personal thing and if you can't understand that then there's no way to explain it any other way. You don't have to justify your faith to others because it is strictly personal. There's just no other way to put it.

 

I understand this completely. However, you can now see based on what you said above why morality based on religious faith primarily or alone is so problematic. If one bases one's morality on something that is a "logical fallacy" and "can't be proven" one way or the other, it seems that basing morality on those grounds alone is nothing more than saying, "it's immoral because I believe so" with nothing further to back it up.

 

Wow... where to start. You bring up a lot of very interesting stuff!

OK, you say God is a logical fallacy (i.e. God doesn't exist). Problem is I don't think that you (or anybody else for that matter) can prove that God doesn't exist, just as nobody can really prove that God does exist.

Also, it is questionable that Descartes even proved anything. There are a lot of problems with "I think therefore I am." These are very complicated philosophical questions.

But God is even more complicated. You have to define God, and prove that something fitting your definition exists. Structurally, however, the proof of God's existance is no different than the proof of our own existance.

Saying you beleive in God or that homosexuality is immoral is the exact same thing as saying you beleive in yourself in that they all have the potential to be proven using logic.

There is no "faith/logic" dichotomy when it comes to what we, as humans, know. In other words, anything that cannot be known by reason cannot be known at all.

Sure, you can beleive whatever you want. You can "have faith" in any absurd notion.

I "have faith" that Chuck Hayes will never miss another free throw. And you know what? If Chuck Hayes never misses another free throw, then homosexuality is wrong. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong.

See how absurd that is? Yes, I used logic, but Christians do, too:

God is omniscient and all-good (and whatever else, but those are the two relevant qualities).
I have faith that God exists.
If God exists, then God wrote the Bible.
The Bible says homosexuality is wrong.
Therefore, homosexuality is wrong.

Exact same thing.

 

YES! EXACTLY!

 

I should not have posted that experience. I was not fair to many very nice people I have met. My brother lived for years next to a gay man who was a neighbor and we had many very pleasant discussions. Sorry, that added nothing to the discussion.

In my opinion there are two misconceptions about homosexuality in the Christian Community-

1. This Christian view of homosexuality as a sin (right or wrong- and not all Christians agree on this) is treated with contempt (which is wrong) stigmatizing the gay community. This happened years ago in Christianity towards those who are divorced in a lesser degree. To the point that divorced people were avoided and marked as 'unclean'. Whenever people are trashed or bashed it is not Christian. I just do not remember Jesus calling out homosexuals in the bible or even addressing the issue. All sins are sins, the ones I commit are not any better, it is not like I commit 'ok' sins. We focus on too many outward actions and do not consider the heart where pain, woundedness, rejection, fear, trauma and pride may lead someone into a bad habit or an addiction. Whether it is lying, stealing, or adultery there are many factors that cause us to develop character. Again, I never have told a homosexual he is going to hell because he is gay and I don't ever remember preaching a message against homosexuality. In some ways a pastor's sins are worse than others because if we really know the truth and disobey we bear a greater guilt than someone who does not have the same information. I don't think protesting or bashing homosexuality is the same as reaching out or preaching in compassion the gospel of Jesus Christ.

2. The Christian view of homosexuality is often hypocritical. While pastors may be 'fleecing' their congregation for money out of pride and greed they may be preaching against their 'pet' sins. This is wrong and hurtful. If we pastors are lusting after women in our imagination and condemning homosexuals then we are hypocrites. If we are sinners also, then we need to have a humble heart and repent ourselves and seek Jesus Christ for forgiveness and restoration. Then we pastors can have a heart of compassion because we understand our own weakness. If I understand Christianity it is not to judge non-Christians but to share the message of God's love and forgiveness in Christ for all who repent and believe.

 

Yes but the logic of Descartes wasn't that we exist, it was that we aren't capable of imagining something that doesn't exist. So if we think there is a God then it exists.

The problem with Descartes philosophy is that while going through the process and eliminating other rationales for possibly having a God, he mentioned the evil genious idea. This stated that there was an evil genious who created the illusion of it and we fell it, or something to that effect. He then went on to say why that hypothesis wasn't any good, and progressed to "I think, therefore I am."

Well according to Descartes own logic he thought of the evil genious theory, so if he thought of it, then it must exist.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

 

not for me but for yourself?? give me a break. you start out ridiculing and then turn it into a self-help lesson? i might vomit.

i've got a ridiculous amount of posts here and a good percentage of them are about my faith. go back and read if you wish. i spend quite a bit of time questioning my faith and my understanding of it. faith, like life, is a journey.

ultimately you're asking me to post stuff so you can attempt to tear it down with your internet blurb research on the topic. to "defend" my faith for someone who won't bother to read through the NT is a joke. particularly when you take the tone you've taken.

this has become about one thing, only...you attacking Christians. that's it. for all your talk about irrationality of God, the only group you continually talk about is Christians.

 

this thread is going nowhere. frankly, it's depressing. i believe that if you deny homosexuals equal rights, you are a bigot. it is no different than denying that right to someone because of ethnicity or gender. i hope that christians will see the truth of this one day.

 

who is advocating not extending equal rights? i'm certainly not.

 

glad to hear that and i'm not surprised. but you know as well as i that it is the christians that are blocking them from marriage in this country.

 

i don't know that. i agree with you there are those who are involved in that.

first of all...many people call themselves Christians, simply because they're born in the US. outside of that, you'd have to look really hard to find something about them that makes you believe they seek to be a disciple of Christ's.

second...these votes on these issues are coming from areas like Oregon. Oregon is one of the most under-churched areas of the country. It's not exactly the Bible-Belt.

third...you don't have to have an opinion about God at all to have a problem with homosexuality. there are people from all different walks of life who aren't comfortable with the concept of same-sex marriage...because marriage has far more cultural meaning in our country than it does religious meaning.

i think it's vastly over-simplitic to suggest that the Christians are blocking same-sex marriage, and but for them it would already be a reality. you just have some of the loudest voices coming from Christian circles of influence.

 

Correct, I suppose I should have made it clear that my personal opinion is that the only thing he proved was that we exist. Yes the evil genius contradiction is a great example of the problem of his work and consequently "I think therefore I am" is the only piece that has any relevance anymore.

 

i don't disagree with a single point you've made. my point was overly-simplistic for a reason- we are talking about christianity's view on homosexuality. what i want is for you, a non-brainwashed, independent-thinking, and enlightened christian, to accept gay and lesbians as your moral equals. as a default mode of course.

 

as i said...we all fall short. that's as equal as it gets. i pray i would never treat someone as less than me, for any reason. all of us..all over the world...are created in the image of God.

 

i think you are still being evasive, but that's okay. you are a good person and i challenge you because you are reasonable, i'm not trying to upset you or change your mind. i can read between the lines here. i won't push you any further because i know the deal, even if you won't spell it out. i just think it's a point were you are being close-minded. i hope that changes some day.

 

not evasive. we're not talking about the same thing.

you believe there are good people and bad people. that there are some that you are morally superior to. i'm guessing you believe you're morally superior to the a lot of the people you read about in the paper. that's pretty typical. and you're projecting that on to me.

i'm telling you from my view, i'm not morally superior to ANYONE. and no one is morally superior to me. we all stand before God and we all fall short, in my view. so the idea that my sin is worse than yours or that yours is worse than mine is silly and pointless. sin is nothing more than seperation from God. it has symptoms, but it's a condition...not an action.

as for whether or not homosexuality is one of those symptoms (or sinful, in the way our culture tends to use that word)...i've said about 4 times in this very thread, i don't know. it's an issue i struggle with. but it has nothing to do with how i treat people. has nothing to do with how I view their worth.

 

who's projecting? i'm only moral in a rational way, if at all. you've got the wrong guy here. i probably used the wrong words with you but i don't think we are talking about different things at all. you struggle with homosexuality as a matter of choice. nobody is telling you not to accept it fully as a natural part of society.

 

I also struggle with my opinion on homosexuality. I've basically come to the conclusion that I don't know either. It's not something I struggle with (I have struggles anenough of my own) so I choose not to judge. My struggle become harder when I actually made some friends who were homosexual.

It is one of those things I have accepted that I don't understand.

 

i'm not sure i understand what you're saying. i think clearly we're not talking about the same thing.

let's start with this: what is it you think i think?

 

Just some thoughts to throw in-

I think some of the struggle for Christians on these type issues come because of refuting evidence; for instance someone presents their evidence that homosexuality is not a choice at all.

If it is not a choice then it cannot be a moral issue. If it is not a choice it is ammoral. If there is no choice the act itself is not sinful. It is not a sin to be a girl or to have red hair.

There is certainly reason for Christians to question the 'sin' or 'moral' issue because so much is being done today to prove that people are born gay and there is no choice on their part. If that is true then it cannot be a sin.

There is another issue though. We are born sinners. We are all born separated from God by nature. None are righteous by birth. The bible states it this way in Isaiah- we all go our own way*. The heart of man is wicked or selfish* and disobedient to God by constitution. Unfortunately selfish motivations in the heart lead to pride and pride to selfish choices and selfish choices sin.

So I think there is some confusion because all are born separated from God and have the motivation of heart that results in pride.

Jesus said sinful acts come from within, in the heart. The motivation to sin is already in the heart through pride. So Jesus said you we need a new heart, a new spiritual birth.

If we are born separated from God does it really matter what sin results in outward choices? So our individual choices to sin are really a matter of life experience and character development, but all will find an expression of sin in life.

That is why we need a divine change of heart.
Christianity is not a self improvement religion, but a God experience that changes the motivations of the heart. Something the bible says we cannot possibly do for ourselves.