The intangibles are what makes a good point guard!!! 20, 6, 6. That's all i hear from the Francis extremists. Who cares? It's how he gets those numbers is what matters. And also, you do not have to be a professional player or coach to evaluate talent or a players skills. The majority of all professional scouts have NEVER played in the "big leagues" so to speak. Does this make them any less worthy of a talent evaluator? Charlie Casserly was a highschool teacher before he became a scout with the Redskins. Your argument is weak.
intangibles make a good gaurd? thats funny, because didn't oscar robertson average a triple double? magic had pretty good numbers. and the list of great players with big numbers goes on. and as far as my argument being weak, well, i guess your entitled to your opinion, it seems thats all you base anything on, really. so, charlie casserly(?) was an english teacher, and then jumped right into scouting for some major sports franchise? rrriiiight, ok, well if you say so. but i was implying that serious dedication and talent go into evaluating talent, and i doubt you have either of those traits, otherwise someone would be paying you for it.
BINGO! Now let me show you how Francis method of assist is worse than Kidds. Now, this is not to suggest that I want Francis to become "Kidd" but rather use this techniques in setting up there teammates. See if you can follow me here... Francis uses his quickness (depending on his athletic ability) to drive past defenders. But because Francis court vision is average, his pass (or type of pass) is basic. Just "meat and potato." It's putting the ball in the hands of a teammate in a bad position to score. Sure, a an open jumper is nice. But Francis is making that player have to create on his own, as opposed to making it EASY FOR that player to score (read my sig). The best PGs in the history of the game, ALWAY made their teammates better. That is the crucial point here. Not that so-and-so teammate missed this shot or that shot. It's not the teammates job to "create." It's Francis's job to get the best, easiest, and sure shot possible. That's where Kidd and Francis differ. Kidd puts the ball in the most easiest position possible for his teammate to score. Franics puts the ball in a moderately to difficult position to score. Sure, sometime Francis's teammates score for an assist. But they come at a difficultly level that is higher than any of Kidd's teammates ever experience. So, when you look a someone's assist total, let say 9 assist per game. That doesn't tell you the whole story: How they got those assist? How easy was it for the teammate to score? What position did you put your teammate in when you passed the ball to him? That's why stats alone don't tell the whole story. You have to watch the game, and know WHY things work before you can understand HOW to do them. And I don't think you see this.
this is so funny, you are such a wise and learned baskeball man! but i have one question.... what if the other players are where the coach told them to be? what if francis is just doing what he was told to do? what if the only problem on the play, was the follow through? the moment after the pass? this is my point, since we aren't behind the scenes, we don't have answers to all those question. but go ahead, ask all the same ol' **** some more, your just proving me right. you just love to argue, i guess you really need the attention.
Keep spinning that "statistics record" and singin' that same old song. I wasn't around in Oscar's time but I can tell you that Magic made everyone around him better. Steve only makes one person better. No, not himself. At least not in the past four years! He makes the opposing PG better with his "matador" defense.
Yep...that's a good point.. That's the Rudy issue. And as you may know, I didn't like Rudy's offensive sets and philosophy. Part of the problme was in fact Rudy's game plan and lack of mentorship of Francis as PG tutor. I mean, Rudy was a shooting small foward. What do you expect? So, yes. You are right. Part of the problem was the plays. That's why I'm excited about JVG. He's at least balanced on offense and defense. He's no Pete Carril, but he's a lot better offensive designer than Rudy. But dont' glaze over the fact that Francis just does'nt know how to do some of the things I've talked about. That still is a problem. Regardless of the plays called by Rudy. Example: Drexler got it. Some players just have that "touch." And he was a SG.
great players do indeed make others better. whose game has improved due to francis? how has he helped his teamates become better? i remember magic used to chew vlade divac out all the time- he probably needed it at the time- now everyone praises him for his court savvy. on the other hand he spoon-fed kareem in the low post for his sky hook, worthy was given perfect outlet passes on the break. okay, all these players, except divac, are better than our players but the point is that magic put his teamates in a position to excel. some of this is coaching, but magic won a title in his first year.
1. OK, so you concede that Fisher and Francis are equally bad on defense. 2. Again, you make a claim and can't back it up. Fisher doesn't do the ball handling in that offense other than bring the ball up court and throw an entry pas every now and then. Prove to me that he is a focal point of the offense like steve and gets as many touches; I'll save you the trouble: He doesn't because he can't. 3. This is going to be fun: First and foremost, Francis is a combo guard, not a PG, but anyway lets say that he is. Althoug Fisher has a better asssist to turnover ration, he far and away makes fewer assists Many of Fisher's assists (well, not many because he only averages three a game) come in the form of alley oop passes to Shaq and Kobe, against single coverage. Where in which Francis' are of more range and difficulty because he only has one Yao and Mobley to pass to and are against double coverage. As far as knowing his role, since I am a basketball genius and know what everybody's role is for every team, I would say Francis as well knows his role. And he is more effective at it than Fisher. ALso, Francis is an effective rebounder, gets some steals, and scorer. So there goes that!! By your analysis, lets say we trade Francis (because Moochie is waiting in the wings for say, O'Neal. This is flawed because Moochie does not play his role better than Francis. But Cato plays his role as C BETTER than O'Neal. HE's not as talented as O'Neal, but he plays a better C than Jermaine!!! So in the end, your argument boils down to: He's better because I say so. I don't think there's anything further I need to say about that.
Your lucky I don't have the time right now to comment on your last post SamFisher. But your time will come! I am salivating at the thought of replying to this laughable nonsense. Absolutly hilarious Keep spinnin' em out.
egn, The debate about Francis vs Fisher is a dead end. It goes to Francis on one-on-one ability, best combo of the two, or building a team in which you want a PG/Combo to be the focal point of your team (maybe to that team's demise). But it goes to Fisher if the PG position is NOT the focal point, and who plays within themselves. Who plays with their wits. Who plays the "game." Not just scoring as a measurement. I understand the position that Fisher is a better all-around guard in the PG department. But no Francis lover would trade Francis for Fisher, even though we aren't debating that. So, it's a dead end, because that's all their debating. Generic, subjective terms like "better" and how that "better" would be used.
Not that I wish to cause too much concern or any hatred but I want you to consider that the arrival of Yao Ming was not a positive for Fancis. Francis and Mobley had turned the Rockets away from the Center Dominated Team of Hakeem and changed it into a Guard Oriented Team. Francis had built a reputation and along came Yao Ming. Going after a potentially dominent Center indicated that the Rockets were going to once again change the direction of the team, afterall the Rockets had Francis and Mobley, shining like stars but the Team was going nowhere. JVG needs to see that the fundamental problem of the Rockets playing as a Team, revolves arround the recognition of the Guard/Center mentality. Then he can fix what needs to be resolved. Both Yao Ming and Francis have Star Roles to play on this Team, they both must agree to play them as the Coach requires. I believe that the former Coach didnt demand much from his Point Guard. In fact last season Francis ran the Team.
EGN, how are you going to comment? I used the exact same logic you used for Fisher-Francis for O'Neal-Cato. Are you saying that there might be some sort of a problem in that mode of analysis?
The debate about O'neal vs. Cato is a dead end. It goes to O'Neal on one on one ability, best combo fo the two, or building a team in which you want a PF/C to be the focal point of your team (maybe to that team's demise). But it goes to Cato if the C position is NOT the focal point, and who plays within themselves, Who plays with their wits. Who plays the "game"" Not just scoring as a measurment. I understand the position that Cato is a better all around Center in the C department. But no O'Neal lover would trade O'Neal for Cato, even though we aren't debating that. So it's a dead end, because that's all their debating. Generic subjective terms like "court vision" "basketball IQ" "knows his role" and how that "court vision" would be used.
If Francis was as dominating as Shaq, you've have a point. Shaq is soooooo dominating that he makes up for other things. Francis does not. Heh, heh... Shaq as the focal point of a team is not a unwise move (not a demise of a team). It's been proven. Francis "focal point" of the team will never be at the same level of Shaqs. Period. And Cato is backup center. Fisher was starting PG for the 3 time Championship Lakers. Also, Cato is not what I'd call a well-rouned center. In case you haven't noticed, he sucks in the center skills department. Even, Todd MacCulloch is a better over-all center than Cato (Although, Cato is better defensively). There is a difference. How nice of you to conveniently ignore Fisher's PG role and then throw in an average center in Cato and just say, "Oh, they are the same....blah, blah, blah..." And then the comparison to Francis and Shaq....heh! That's funny! Sorry, but Fisher is a better all-around PG than Cato is an all-around center. But again, you change the subject. Francis's lack-luster on the job performance.
David, it was Jermaine O'Neal, read a few posts up. My point was that the arguments trotted out by egn and you are so slippery they can be credibly advanced to make any number of absurd conclusions. Which they are.
Ok, thanks. Jermaine O'Neal was only part of my rebut. You still compared Cato to Fisher. By the way, builing a team around "Jermaine O'Neal" is another topic all together.
