I guess ignorance has fully overcome you and you have failed to acknowledge this post or any of my other posts on the other thread. I don't know if you are blind or if you are just plain stupid!! So for the THIRD TIME NOW............ Once again, A BETTER POINT GUARD, not, and I REPEAT NOT a better player.
"Retreat/modificaion??!?!?!" Does that change anything? And even with egn's "retreat/modification" Francis still has sub-par court vision and a bad assist/turnover ratio. We still have reality to deal with. Saying that Francis is better than so-and-so guard only purpose is to give you "warm fuzzy's." But that's about it. It changes nothing.
Really? Fisher 10 pts 3assists a game and no defense = better point guard than Francis 22 pts, 6 assists, a game and no defense? "Court Vision" Please DavidS, tell me how you have evaluated Derek Fisher's court vision as compared to Steve Francis....Did you and egn have an all night film study session? Did you get on the hotline to Tex Winter and ask him? Special retinal implants to allow you to see what he sees? Or are you just making stuff up to justify an otherwise untenable argument?
???? What??? How about reading the all of the post. There is no retreat/modification as you say. In that post I mentioned that he was a better POINT GUARD. I said NOTHING about him being more talented or a better player. You can spin it however you want to satisfy your own ignorance. But you are still wrong. PERIOD. My reasons why I would rather have Fisher as my point than Francis, I stated about 7 posts later. How convienent of you to neglect to mention these when you butcher my post of the meaning. What's funny is that you choose to concoct and formulate weak and unsubstantiated theories based on the meaningless part of my post. I stand by my reasons and I will post them again: He knows his role and plays within his own game for one. Two, he is one hell of a defensive PG. And three, with the money that I will save, I can use it to get a better SG or a strong PF. Fisher is not the best defensive guard in the NBA but he's still better than Francis. I will also mention that Fisher virtually NEVER turns the ball over.
Blah blah blah, how do you know what his role is? Do you sit in the huddle with Tex Winter? LMAO, Good on defense? he made Mike Bibby's career, he can't guard quick point guards for sh-t; that's been known for years. Why do you think steve scores 30 something points on the Lakers all the time? He doesn't turn the ball over becaues he never has it. How sucky of a "Point Guard" as you define it, must you be if your team nver lets you get the ball? I lovve how you try to qualify your argument about saving money and bringing non basketball items into the equation: Guess what Egn, the going rate for superstars in the league is the maximum salary. I don't know who these bargain basement players are that you plan on bringing in who are better, but I'd love to hear about them. However, by so doing, you're dragging out hte same stupid argument that was used in the other thread: So and so + other star player = better than Francis! That's a great equation, but it works both ways: Francis + Kelvin Cato = better than Shaquille O'Neal. Why? cause there's two of them! But anyway, let's apply your logic another way, speaking of Cato. I think that Kelvin Cato is a BETTER C than Jermaine O'Neal. Why? Kelvin shoots a higher percentage than O'Neal, has fewer turnovers, and the bottom line, he KNOWS HIS ROLE! He gets rebounds, blocks shots, and plays DEFENSE and PLUS, with the money I save from O'Neal's contract, I can get myself a badass Small Forward or Point Guard to go with him!! Why is the preceding paragraph any less valid than your analysis of Francis v. Fisher?
i'm agreeing with Sam on this issue. How can you argue that Derek fisher, of all people, is a better point guard? thats like saying Kenny Smith was better than Gary Payton back in '94. Derek Fisher's only role is to dribble the ball up the floor and pass it to either Kobe or Shaq. He never creates off the dribble, and he doesnt drive and dish at all. Any assists he gets come from passing the ball around the 3 point line to open shooters. He is simply a product of the Lakers system. Francis, meanwhile, handles the ball a majority of the time, constantly penetrates into the lane, and finds open shooters or dishes to the big men. The next time Derek Fisher does this will be his first.
Gee, god forbid we have any good players on this team... Being a point guard is pretty easy when all you do is throw the ball into the low block all game. Now that you mention it, Kenny Smith didn't have many turnovers, either... Every good "point guard" has a great big man to compliment him. Derek Fisher would be in the CBA without Shaq, and Tony Parker would still be eating Puff Pastry over in France without Duncan. Steve Nash? Did anybody even know about him before Dirk came along? Gary Payton? Funny how the Sonics have hovered around the mid 40's in wins after Kemp left and Baker turned into a fat ass alcoholic. Mike Bibby was sure setting the NBA on fire leading the Grizzlies to a combined 45 wins over two full seasons. Marbury - Before Stoudamire = 36 wins. After Stoudamire = 44 wins...AMAZING! Hopefully, that most improved player trophy will keep Gilbert Arenas company as he languishes through a 30 win season while Jahidi White, Kwame Brown, Brendan Haywood, and Christain Laettner bumble their way along So far in his career, Steve has had Charles Barkley for one month, a gimpy Hakeem Olajuwon, The 420 twins Taylor and Griffin, Kenny Thomas (who's barely big enought to play small forward), Kelvin Cato, and a rookie that missed all of training camp and half the preseason
egn, while i appreciate the stridency with which you argue your point, you are just plain wrong. i also have problems with francis, but derek fisher is terrible.
SamFisher, I wasn't talking about Fisher. I was talking about you feeling all better of yourself if we think that Francis is worst or better than ANY player. I did not bring up Fisher, you did. i.e. List, or ranking....go back an re-read my last post. You are wasiting your time on a "my guard is better than your guard" argument. We still have to deal with Francis's inept court leadership. Please come back to earth and stay on topic here. The issue isn't whether Fish can jump out of the gym, fastest, quickest, etc... It's about Francis, skills. Or lack thereof. Heh...
wow, i have noticed that some people, egn and david s being among them, really love to argue. i also think that they seem to be in love with their own voices. they just go on and on and on about "court vision" and "basketball IQ" whenever making their cases because those are intangibles to the argument. there is no real proof, or substance, for those arguments. i said it before, and i will say it again, none of us, unless we spent all our adult lives in professional basketball, is qualified to make those judgements. hell, since we never even MET them, we can't really say anything about their intelligence, basketball or otherwise. i find it arrogant and rude for some fat spectator on a computer to pass judgement on someone at a profession, when they don't know the first thing about it. you can say, "well i played organized ball in highschool and i'm not fat!" but that still doesn't qualify you to asses their IQ at anything. i know, i know, lottery 4 years running. well, i hate excuses, but 3 major injury plagued years is what it is. the fact is, we have not lived up to potential. why? i don't know, perhaps coaching, perhaps the supporting cast. but what i do know, is steve is a damn good pg, and not overrated.
That's not my position. I've never said that. If I had to pick between Fisher and Francis to build a team. I'd start with LeBron or Payton. Forget the other two. Fisher is a good very good role player. A solid PG. Francis is very good guard. But not good enough to where I'd build my team around him. He has too many flaws to LEAD a team. Payton and Yao would be a better team. Or LeBron and Yao. I'm finding it more and more hilarious that some of you are getting defensive in your determination to prove that Francis is better than so-and-so guards. Who cares!!!??? Big frikin' deal!!!! My position has always been, it's not that important about a "list" or "ranking." It's about doing ones job on the court.
Nah-uh....you are suggesting that STATS ALONE prove everything. My postion is that stats only tell HALF the story! Get it!!!? Watch the game, mos-def!!!!
when you create as many scoring opportunities for your teammates as j-kidd does, you're allowed to have some TO's.
this post is a big pile of flaming crap. so, what? when you go buy shoes, you don't critique the other shoes...since, after all, you're not in the shoe manufacturing business. therefore, you're not in a position to comment on the quality of the shoe, right? or when you go to a restaurant, you don't criticize the food if if appears to be burned because, after all, you're not in the restaurant business, right? whatever... you go ahead and be fed spoonfuls of crap. i'll choose to call a spade a spade. when i see bad decision making on the court, i don't need to have played nba ball to speak about it. it's freaking common sense not to dribble the damn laces off the ball for 20 seconds. it's common sense to get the ball up court and into your offense with more than 15 seconds on the shot clock. if you don't want to see that, cool. be blind. i'm not.
well, david, i watch all the games on league pass, and haven't missed one since the early 90's (thank you vcr!) but the things you mention are all a matter of opinion. this is the problem i have with your logic. if you and i watched a game, and wrote notes, i garauntee that we will have different opinions on things, but its in the stats, that wee see the truth of the matter. if i followed your reasoning, i could argue that stevie is much better than kidd. i could say that kidds assists come on fast break dunks and layups, and that steve is always penetrating (at the request of the coach) and then dishes out to a shooter. the shooter then either throws a brick, or pumpfakes dibbles to basket and blws the jumper, costing francis hundreds of assist a year. either way, it doesn't void my point that you nor i, are qualified to judge intangibles like these, because we don't know the coaches gameplan, or how to play basketball in the nba. and when discussing whether one player is good or not, its all perspective and opinion, and its the stats that tell how things really are. look, i really don't give a **** who's better than who, i just want them to win, but i hate it when people around here come off as know-it-all jerks. you don't know anymore than me, or the next person. lets just root for OUR rockets!
