I guess I'm just not as big a Robert Horry fanboy as you are Sam Cassell hit some big shots? Are you even old enough to remember the series against NY? Without Cassell the Rockets don't win their first Championship period. Robert Horry was considered the weakest of the starting five dude, and most Houston fans were much more pissed about giving up Cassell than Horry. Phoenix wanted Cassell because Kevin Johnson was breaking down. He was gimped and everyone knew it, and I definately think Sam was the player they wanted. Wake up? Hmmm, you normally don't have a smart mouth, some one must have pissed you off, but please don't take it out on me. Raven
Phoenix wanted Cassell because Kevin Johnson was breaking down. He was gimped and everyone knew it, and I definately think Sam was the player they wanted. You're ignoring the fact that 3 months prior to the trade, they had just spent their #1 pick on Steve Nash. They drafted Nash to be the eventual replacement for KJ. You're also totally ignoring the quote from the Chronicle that I posted. Cassell wasn't even guarenteed to be in the original deal. If Cassell was the key to the deal, then his inclusion wouldn't have been in question. Sam Cassell hit some big shots? Are you even old enough to remember the series against NY? Without Cassell the Rockets don't win their first Championship period. And they win either championship without Horry? Nobody has hit more big shots in the playoffs than Horry. Horry played both ends of the floor, unlike Cassell who played no defense whatsoever. Robert Horry was considered the weakest of the starting five dude, and most Houston fans were much more pissed about giving up Cassell than Horry. Anybody that told you Robert Horry was the weakest link in the Rockets starting 5 was an idiot. You need to remember that Kenny Smith was in that starting 5. Horry was huge on defense and clutch on offense, plus he was our best post passer. Also keep in mind that Cassell wasn't even in the starting 5 for either championship.
Not trying to be a smart ass but sometimes it happens. Sorry. BTW, Ive been watching the Rockets religously since the Malone days...(don't tell anyone but I'm getting old ) Horry was a bigger impact player in both championships than Cassell.
Dude, RH was by far the weakest link of the starting five. Do you have daydreams of horse riding on an island beach with Horry or something. Go back and look at the tapes if you have them, or at least look at the stats. Hell, Mario was more important than RH. Damn, the fanaticism on this board amazes me. Do you even remember the playoff game against Utah, where KS basically exploded, and completey took over the game. Without that victory, it would have been almost impossible to beat Utah in that series. Yeah, RH hit some clutch shots, but so did KS (Knicks, game 7, 4th quarter), and VM, and ME also hit clutch shots. Hell the Rockets 8 man rotation ALL hit clutch shots during that first Championship run. Why are RH's clutch shots more crucial than KS, VM, or Cassell's? To say that RH was more important than KS just boggles my mind. Raven
No use arguing who was better than who...The whole TEAM won our first championships and that's what matters! Damn I can't believe this disscusion is being held, this year's team better make the playoffs so it can give something new to talk about..peace
We should be able to get more for Steve than he's worth, for precisely the reason so many people in this thread are b****ing that we'll get less than he's worth: the flashy all-star factor. Steve contributes way more to thrills for the fans than he does to winning. Teams that are having trouble exciting their fans will want him, and in exchange, will be willing to part with players who aren't much fun to watch but can help Yao Ming win games. Van Gundy will take that kind of deal in a minute. I just hope Alexander, the guy who has to fill the seats, will go along.
The trade I would like to see is Steve Francis for TJ Ford and Desmon Mason + Filler I would even do Steve Francis + Filler for TJ Ford and KVH
Yeah, RH hit some clutch shots, but so did KS (Knicks, game 7, 4th quarter), and VM, and ME also hit clutch shots. Hell the Rockets 8 man rotation ALL hit clutch shots during that first Championship run. Why are RH's clutch shots more crucial than KS, VM, or Cassell's? To say that RH was more important than KS just boggles my mind Ok, once again I'll back up my points with quotes from reliable sources. I'm sure you'll reply with a "Well, the way I remember it" or "All the guys on the ESPN board said" or something equally legitimate. Here's a little blurb from CNNSI: Unsung hero: But Robert Horry, the 6'10", third-year forward, was clearly the Rocket who opened the most eyes during the playoffs. ... Horry's astounding versatility was indeed reminiscent of Scottie Pippen. He is both a dangerous three-point shooter and an excellent slasher and finisher around the basket. He also played defense, rebounded and handled the ball exceedingly well, and had it not been for the relentlessly spectacular play of Olajuwon, Horry would have received serious consideration for Finals MVP http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/features/si_nbafinals/1995/ Here's a quote from a Sefko article in the Chronicle on 4/796: Most Valuable Player - Isn't it a hoot the way those people hype Scottie Pippen for the league's top individual award? It's the same thing that happened in the Finals last June when people tried to promote Robert Horry for that MVP honor over Hakeem Olajuwon Here's an even better article from the Chronicle on 6/18/95: Through the Western Conference semifinals, finals and NBA Finals , Horry became known as "The X Factor," the one man in the Rockets' lineup for whom opposing coaches had no clue about containing. Olajuwon had been, well, Olajuwon. Clyde Drexler became the indomitable force and second "go-to guy" team management envisioned when they traded for him last February. And at small forward, the 6-10, 220-pound Horry was a threat. But when moved to the other side of the front line, he became a power far more difficult to reckon with than anyone, friend or foe, might have imagined. "I know Dream and Clyde played well. But right now, I think Robert's my MVP of the Finals ," says swingman Mario Elie, who did his own share of overachieving to help the Rockets sweep the Orlando Magic in four straight games. "He's made all the big plays. He's been a part of every victory. Game 2, (an NBA Finals -record) seven steals. Game 3 , he hits the big 3 . Game 4, he hits some big shots down the stretch. later in that same article: Horry 's statistics when the Finals were complete paled by comparison to those of Olajuwon, who averaged 32 points, nearly 12 rebounds and six assists in the four-game sweep of the Magic But in his own right, Horry was of most-valuable quality to the Rockets: 17.8 points, 10.0 rebounds, 3 .8 assists that were complemented by a will and determination bigger than the Texas Commerce Tower. even more good stuff from that article: For the playoffs, he scored at the rate of 13.1 points per game. In the Finals , Horry pulled down 40 rebounds, including a personal series-high 13 in the clincher. He had a Finals -record seven steals in Game 2 and posted a career playoff-high five blocked shots in Game 1 to go with 19 points. Small forward, power forward. Horry even showed an ability to play point guard, several times bringing the ball upcourt against the Magic's trapping defense. Ok, there's some documented quotes. Now show me somebody that thought Kenny Smith or Elie should have been in the running for MVP of the finals. Give me something to back up your points instead of just telling me how you remember things.
GAME. SET. MATCH. aelliott, no sense wasting your time...you could poll everyone that watched that series in the entire country...and they would all back you up....but that guy will never admit he is flatout WRONG. you know you are right, I know you are right, most of this board that actually watched those years with the critical eye of a diehard fan knows you are right... everyone but raven. SC was a fan favorite inHouston...but hardly good enough back then to have been the main part of the Bark trade...K Smith was a nice compliment to the team...but once again...not near as important to the team as Horry was during the Finals runs.. period...end of argument..
You can't be wrong or right when it comes to an opinion. In my opinion Cassell was more important than Horry in the title runs. IRDGAS whether you agree or not. I could say more, but it might get me yelled at by Clutch Raven
One of my pet peeves. While it's technically impossible to be "right" or "wrong" about opinions... why even bother voicing them if they're totally irrational? The truth is, there's a differing range of "reasonable" opinions on most matters. They range in persuasiveness. Opinions aren't just irrational assertions - they're based on facts, inferences, logic... and yes, preferences. Some are better than others. If you think yours is persuasive, tell us why. But don't resort to bull**** statements about how everyone's opinion is equally valid - because they're not, and nobody really thinks so.
Seems to me that you're the one being a bit "out there", Raven. I've been watching the Rockets since the late '70's, and you're wrong about this one. It doesn't sound like you saw McCray and Peterson play. I did, and they were damn good. McCray wasn't a high pick for nothing. He didn't turn out long-term like many assumed he would, but that isn't the first time that's happened. And Peterson was one hell of a role-player who showed up big in the playoffs. No offense. ET was popular with the media when we had our run with him, but as good as he was, he wasn't seen nearly in the light that he is now. Hell. he's been underrated for years.
No problem. I think Cassell hit more important shots than Horry, in that two year run. I definitely think Kenny Smith hit more big time shots than Horry, in that two year run. I think the Rockets could have won both championships without Robert, but there's no way they win either one without Kenny or Sam. In my opinion. Raven
And yes, I familiar with Horry's record for steals, but I'm more impressed with this: NBA Finals Record Most 3 point FGs made, seven by Kenny Smith, Houston at Orlando, June 7, 1995 (OT) Raven
I don't think Phx does the 4 player deal w/o Cassell. They may have moved Cassell right along, but he had a lot of value league wide, I'd say in the same ball park as Roberty Horry. For the 1st ring it is pretty undeterminable who was the 3rd best Rocket after Hakeem and OT. They really would not have won w/o all their role players, I'd say starting with Max honestly. I also think for the 1st ring Cassell was atleast if not more important than Horry. For the 2nd ring Horry had a great final series and held up better than expected versus (an injured) Chuck in the ring decisive 2nd round match-up. However obviously Hakeem was the best, and not with standing reporters trying to write a story with a good line (Horry for the MVP), Clyde was clearly the #2 MVP (who saved our bacon almost singled handidly in game 5 in Utah and played well throughout). I will say Horry probably has a clear cut case for being the 3rd most valuable Rocket on the 2nd run because after Hakeem the frontcourt talent was so thin (Mario was really a guard sharing the 3 man duties with another big guard--Clyde). Cassell and Smith were not as valuable because we had both to play the point. Thus Horry was 3rd most valuable largely due to the make-up of the rest of the roster, but it is debatable whether he was the 3rd best player or hottest young commodity. To sumarrize I think Cassell (un unquestioned young and rising, explosive PG) and Horry were darned close in trade value at that time and Phx and we could not have provided enough to land Barkley w/o both of them. Like I said just because Phx moved him sooner than Horry does not mean they did not think he was the lesser player or had lesser trade value, it may simply have reflected their depseration to get some front court defense and depth at the 1. At least this is how I remember these events and my speculations on them.
I think you missed the point. The discussion was not about your oppinion but the oppinion of the Phoenix Suns when they traded Barkley for Horry and Cassell. I think it is quite clear that the real value in the Barkley trade was Horry...at least in the eyes of the Suns. Your oppinion does not count. I think the fact that Phoenix traded Sam again after only 22 games shows what the Suns thought of him. I think the fact that Dallas traded him after only 16 games shows what the rest of the NBA thought of him.
Weeee, let's keep it going one more day. You don't know what the Suns were thinking. You're just assuming. Raven
from Will: God, I hope so. I think we're jaded in different ways. I think SF has to go, but if JVG and CD don't get a good enough offer - I'd prefer he stay for another year. Only because I do expect great things from Yao next year (3rd year syndrome) and a possible run to the WC finals is not out of the question. But it's unlikely and I don't believe we're contenders next year with the current team. So, by all means bring on the idiots. Can SF sell tickets? Probably. In the East can he get a team to the second round of the playoffs? Well, why not? I had such high hopes for this team at the start of last season, and even though I like the players on this year's squad, I have finally admitted I don't like this team. SF had a very good game Friday, and we all know he can even do better than that. But for all his talent this team needs a good point guard, and I can't see how anyone thinks he is.
I don't have a problem with you having opinion. What I do have a problem with is you stating outlandish things as if they were facts and implying that it was ridiculous for anyone to think otherwise. That goes beyond opinion and you'll get called for that everytime on this board. Let's review: 1)No one's a bigger critic of SF than I am (I go so far as to say he killed YM's chances for ROY), but to suggest he's not a superstar is just silly. First you say it's just silly to suggest that Francis isn't a superstar. In reality, Francis has never even made the 1st, 2nd or 3rd All-NBA team. I pointed that fact out, you chose to ignore it. So, if somebody had an opinion different from your, they were just silly, right? 2)He's capable of scoring 40 points any time he steps on the court Here you go again stating things that have no basis in reality. Francis has scored 40 or more points exactly one time in his 350-some games. I pointed this out to you...again you choose to ignore the facts. You can claim that it's your opinion, but the facts show that you are overwhelmingly wrong. 3) Horry a bigger factor in the trade than Cassell? LOL, sure if you say so. Again, you laugh that people have a different opinion than you. I gave you sources that showed that Cassell wasn't even in the original deal, so he obviously wasn't the biggest factor. Your response? "I remember some talk on ESPN and local radio". 4)Robert Horry was considered the weakest of the starting five dude, and most Houston fans were much more pissed about giving up Cassell than Horry. Again, you're not just stating it as your opinion, you are telling us what "most Houston fans" thought. I provided you several legitimate quotes that showed that to be incorrect. You ignored those, of course. 5) Phoenix wanted Cassell because Kevin Johnson was breaking down. He was gimped and everyone knew it, and I definately think Sam was the player they wanted. The fact was that Phoenix had just drafted Steve Nash in the 1st round three months prior to the Barkley trade, so they never wanted Cassell to be Johnson's backup. I pointed that out and of course you never responded to those facts. 6)Dude, RH was by far the weakest link of the starting five. Go back and look at the tapes if you have them, or at least look at the stats To say that RH was more important than KS just boggles my mind Ignoring the fact that this is the 2nd time you used the term "Dude" in the same thread, you're again totally dismissing any opinion other than yours as ridiculous. I gave you plenty of references to show that you were wrong on this one also. Don't tell people to "at least look at the stats", when you yourself have no idea of what the stats were and in fact they disprove your point. Sorry, but after stating it so strongly, a comeback like "well I have my opinion" doesn't hold water. As I said, state your opinion all you want...but don't state it as if it's fact. Also remember that just because it's your opinion, people will still challenge you on them. Opinions are fine, but you'll be taken alot more seriously if you actually have some facts to back up those opinions. ESPN boards seem to be the place for wild statements with no facts behind them. That kind of stuff, generally doesn't play too well here.
