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Certain “highly anticipated” Xbox 360 title filling four discs worth of space

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by RC Cola, Dec 4, 2005.

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  1. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

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    I don't understand your logic here? Just because one can afford to buy another HD DVD player component doesn't necessarily mean they would if the console had the capability to play HD DVDs. I know I would not buy a stand-alone HD DVD player if the console had that capability. Why would it make sense to do that...unless your just a die-hard who has to have a stand-alone because you swear the picture quality is better...which means your a videophile(or one who has to have the best picture as they believe they can see the difference and it matters so much). Most people are going to use the console DVD player as their primary player if they have that option...unless they already own a better DVD player. Lord knows I don't need any more HT components.

    But, as an early adopter of XBOX 360, I may have to buy another HD DVD player unless MS comes out with an add-on to the 360. I may not want to buy an add-on in that case depending on the cost versus a stand-alone. Then again...I can reason that maybe I should just buy a PS3 as I can get gaming as well on the Sony side along with the HD DVD player.
     
    #21 Surfguy, Dec 5, 2005
  2. Coach AI

    Coach AI Member

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    You'll have to refresh my memory; how much does an HD-DVD hold.

    And if I'm understanding you right, even if this game was on a Blu-Ray disc, until they get the dual layer worked out, it would still be multi disc?
     
    #22 Coach AI, Dec 5, 2005
  3. Hakeem06

    Hakeem06 Member

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    only reason this isn't a good idea....4 discs is going to cost more than $200 on an xbox360!!!! for a damn game?? i don't think so.
     
    #23 Hakeem06, Dec 5, 2005
  4. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

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    What? It's still the one game. Your pricing model is flawed.
     
    #24 Surfguy, Dec 5, 2005
  5. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    HD-DVD holds 15G. If a game needs 4 HD discs, it will at the minimum require 2 blu-ray discs. You'll just have to remember to take RC's posst with a grain of salt. He has quite a Sony fanboyish attitude. And I'm one of those idiots who drove around for a week looking for a PS2 when it came out.
     
    #25 hotballa, Dec 5, 2005
  6. Davidoff

    Davidoff Member

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    HAHAH LMAO.. I dont know why, but that had me rolling!! :D
     
    #26 Davidoff, Dec 5, 2005
  7. Dr of Dunk

    Dr of Dunk Clutch Crew

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    Well... considering you usually don't pay "per disc" of a game... I doubt that. lol.
     
    #27 Dr of Dunk, Dec 5, 2005
  8. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    As hotballa said, HD-DVD is 15GB per layer, so 30GB for two and 45GB for 3 (although the 3-layer disc was more of a theoretical disc than one planned for mainstream use). Going by pure size alone (7.5GB*4 discs =30GB), yes, this game would require two Blu-ray discs, unless they got dual layer working properly; however, depending on the game, some data may need to be copied to each of the 4 DVD's, using up extra space.

    For example, let's say this is an RPG with 5 "towns" total, which you can visit on any disc. If these towns took up say 2 GB or so, then 2GB have to be reserved on all 4 discs (basically 6GB "wasted"); however, on a Blu-ray disc, only the original 2GB would be needed. So, in a way, a game needing 4 DVD's could still work on a single-layer BR disc depending on the circumstances.

    Which parts should be taken with a grain of salt? I'd be interested in knowing which parts were "Sony fanboyish." I'm only giving my opinion, which appears to be a popular opinion of other gamers and several game developers as well. Is preferring 1 disc to multi-discs fanboyish? News to me.
     
    #28 RC Cola, Dec 5, 2005
  9. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Well... I was okay with N64 cartridges. Developers later compressed the sound and CGI. With sound and video compression, a 36 GIG game would be around 24. If their hardware was up to up, they could improve compression routines on textures to make the savings even more. IMO, it's inefficient and lazy devs who think compression would bog down resources for their precious work of art....

    It's also an excuse for them to jack up the price of games.
     
    #29 Invisible Fan, Dec 6, 2005
  10. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    The link doesn't work anymore. Something's wrong with their database...

    There's plenty middleware out there focused upon console compression without any intense CPU usage, so it's mainly a pride issue IMO.

    Yeah, with HD around the corner, it's quite possible that most of the storage will go to textures.

    I remember the old days when I went on Usenet and saw rips of old games for 1/4 the size of an installation cd. Asked why the files were so small, the general reply was that they took out the movies and compressed the .wav/redbook soundtracks into mp3s. All the gameplay content was left in tact. The people who put up those games factored in that the time and space needed to move a giant CD (36bbps days) and saw that it fit the need for a smaller game.

    You're seeing an industry where the top 5% of the developers are raising standards that most games won't even need or use throughout the 360's lifetime.

    I don't know... I like graphics, but I'm a snob for substance.
     
    #30 Invisible Fan, Dec 6, 2005
  11. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    Link is working for me right now, although if it gives you any more problems, there are several other links with the same interview on Google. Here's a few more:
    http://unrealtournament2004.filefro..._Mark_Rein_Vice_President_of_Epic_Games;21789
    http://next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1111&Itemid=35

    Just out of curiousity, what are some of those? I'm sure most developers were already using this middleware anyways this-gen. I'm not particularly familar with the compression techniques of UE 3.0, but I'm sure it is at least decent (although it won't cut down total size by 50% over previous techniques); despite that, the developer of the engine is saying that they'll probably go with Blu-ray discs if they have the choice.

    Most likely. Although I imagine audio data and redundant data (technique to improve streaming/load times) will increase a good deal as well.

    BTW, I believe I've been making a slight error with my DVD numbers. Regular DVD9 holds about 8.5GB, while the Xbox 360 DVDs hold about 7GB; for some reason, I thought they held 9, leaving the 360 with 7.5GB (~1.5 GB gone due to security reasons). So 4 Xbox 360 DVDs would be like 28GB instead 30.
     
    #31 RC Cola, Dec 6, 2005
  12. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    You hit the nail right on the head there... The 360 Games that I've played extensively (6 launch titles) are all great games, and for the life of me I can't see needing "more" out of a DVD then those games. Call of Duty 2 which is easily the best 360 launch title gives you everything you could ever want out of a game. If a game is going to have huge cut scenes or vast lands and two discs are needed, been by all means do it... because that is usually a call sign of an RPG, a genre that's fanbase already knows to expect multiple discs. As an avid Need for Speed Underground player I can tell you that I see no problem with limited area's of exploration... NFS is like the GTA of racers and GUN is a GTA in the Wild West.
     
    #32 Svpernaut, Dec 6, 2005
  13. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    Since the convo is focued on HD-DVDs which hold 15 GB, your 30 GB game would take two standard HD-DVDs. Same number as Blu-Ray.

    You're still comparing blu-ray to regular DVD. This argument is moot.

    Good, then I'm sure you'll love this development, since it means consumers can now have about the same storage space at lower prices, plus they don't have to pay the exhorbiant fees for a Blu-Ray player.

    http://www.physorg.com/news4052.html
     
    #33 hotballa, Dec 7, 2005
  14. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    I had Factor 5's audio compression in mind. The stuff they've done on the N64 and Cube was impressive at the time. My first week at work, so I don't have time at the moment to dig up more...
     
    #34 Invisible Fan, Dec 7, 2005
  15. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    True. Although I don't remember if the HD-DVD group is also having problems with dual-layer discs (don't think so); if they aren't, then a 30GB game (or 28GB as I later corrected myself) could fit on a 30GB DL HD-DVD disc, which would be the smart thing I imagine. Of course, it would fit on a BR DL disc as well if they got it working, but that seems to be a problem, so HD-DVD has the advantage at the moment in storage (MS and Intel were right I guess).

    Again though, that's assuming that the game pretty much had 7 GB of unique data on each disc (nothing from disc one was copied to discs 2-4, and so on). Considering this game would only be about a few GBs away from the BR SL limit, it wouldn't take much duplicate data for this game to fit on one BR SL disc.

    How is it moot? Rokkit asked a question about whether or not this game would need 2 BR discs and I answered him. Considering that this would be a transistion from DVD to BR, I think all I have to compare is DVD and BR. What else should I have said? It really wasn't even an argument but an example to show how a game that uses 4 DVD's could possibly end up on 1 SL BR disc, even though 4 360 DVD's = 28GB and 1 SL BR disc = 25GB. In fact, I didn't even think about the fact that a game using 4 360 DVD's does not necessarily use 28GB, just more than 21GB and less than/equal to 28GB. The game could be 24-25GB for all I know. Although to be fair, the article said it used four full DVDs, so I guess it could be closer to 28GB then.

    I'm just trying to show reasons why I think MS should have gone with either HD-DVD or Blu-ray instead of sticking with DVD for their standard drive; actually, they might have been able to use a proprietary DVD format as well...or at least used the full DVD9 capacity for game data, like the Xbox did. While I used examples with Blu-ray, the same examples could more or less be used with HD-DVD, especially with DL HD-DVD discs. I was just trying to show the differences between sticking with DVD and going with a next-gen optical format

    Which development? The 3 layer disc (which I mentioned earlier on) or the hybrid discs? I guess it doesn't matter since, at the time (back in May?), I was happy for both, especially since the hybrid solution made the Blu-ray group develop their own hybrid. I believe it even persuaded a few movie studios to support Blu-ray.

    Although I don't see how those developments mean the things you said. I might be wrong, but I'm thinking the 3-layer disc was made just to say HD-DVD supported 45GB, just 5GB less than BR DL discs; I imagine the single and dual layer discs will be pushed a lot harder. It might just end up sitting next to the 4-layer BR discs (100GB), the 8-layer BR discs(200GB), and the BR discs made of corn and/or paper. :)

    I imagine that HD-DVD and BR players will cost about the same anyway, so it isn't like that is a big deal...and that doesn't include the PS3, which would probably be $450-$500 tops, IMO. Considering that BR has support from practically the whole CE industry, almost all the major studios except for Paramount (don't think they've officially committed...yet), and tons of other companies, HD-DVD doesn't really stand much of a chance. If that sounds "Sony fanboyish" then I guess it also sounds Samsung fanboyish, Philips fanboyish, Dell fanboyish, Apple fanboyish, Panasonic fanboyish, Sharp fanboyish, TDK fanboyish, Thomson fanboyish, HP fanboyish, 20th Century Fox fanboyish, Disney fanboyish, etc.
     
    #35 RC Cola, Dec 7, 2005
  16. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    Does Factor 5 let other developers use their compression tools, or are they just something they developed and used themselves? They probably won't have much reason to work on them now that they're behind the PS3 though.

    When you have some more, I'd appreciate any extra info if you don't mind.
     
    #36 RC Cola, Dec 7, 2005
  17. Hakeem06

    Hakeem06 Member

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    if the game is going to be 4 discs they aren't going to charge you just the $60. i remember having to shell out nearly the double the price for 2 disc games on the original Playstation. and it's just like music cd's too. if someone puts out a 2 disc album you aren't paying just the regular $13 or whatever, you're paying near $20 or more. it may not be $200, that was a just wild joking guess, but it sure as hell isn't going to be $60 for a 4 disc game. a more educated guess would be around $120.
     
    #37 Hakeem06, Dec 8, 2005
  18. RC Cola

    RC Cola Member

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    Sorry, but that is a TERRIBLE educated guess. You do realize that each extra disc would only cost them like 10 cents more or something like that, right? The only reason why they might charge a lot more for a 4 disc game versus a 1 disc game is if the game needed like 4x the budget to create the content. Other than that though, it is perfectly fine to assume that a game coming on 4 DVDs would still cost about $60...maybe a little more, but nothing that crazy.

    Of course, if we go to Japan, $100-$200 per game might be a little more likely.

    edit: BTW, which games cost double the price? I don't remember much about prices given my age, but I remember getting games like FF7 and FF8 (3 and 4 discs each) for around the same price as other games. Either that, or my dad had less problems paying $100+ for game than I thought.
     
    #38 RC Cola, Dec 8, 2005
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2005
  19. Coach AI

    Coach AI Member

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    PC games have been multi-disc for years, and that doesn't raise the game prices. There are plenty of XBOX, PS2 and GC games out there that are two discs that cost as much as a single disc. You aren't going to see a big jump because of multiple discs.
     
    #39 Coach AI, Dec 8, 2005
  20. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    No problem, they've made tools better than Nintendo's standard toolset for N64 that Nintendo asked them to help them build audio support for the Cube. They made the DPLII real time encoder that Lucas Arts licences (for mostly GC games...). I had to dig way back (when I had a good opinon of IGN) for this.

    Factor 5, DivX Networks release SDK for GameCube
    DiVX for GCN explained
    Factor 5 Sounds off on Cube Audio
    Factor 5 on Musyx and GBA
    DPLII on GCN with Musyx

    Why use Divx instead of Bink or even WMV? The other two might be prefered for PC or Xbox games (pro-MS,high quality, low cpu overhead and/or low ram footprint), but it's mostly a bad habit with consoles/systems focused for gaming. Divx does suffer in potential quality, but with near DVD quality in 1/7 of a DVD disc, how can you blame it...

    I exaggerated on the "several middleware" line. I still think devs are choosing poor habits that sprung out when CDs and later DVDs septupled the amount of space they had to work with....

    Heck, just with the middleware found in those links you could fit a 100 minute movie inside a DS cartridge....

    They make good stuff. Tech hounds like them will find a reason...
     
    #40 Invisible Fan, Dec 10, 2005
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