[CBS Sports] Howard no lock for Lakers; interested in Rockets

From Larry Coon's FAQ:

If a team is below the cap, then its Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level (either the Taxpayer or Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, whichever applies to the team) and/or trade exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap1. This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question number 38). A team can't act like it's under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or trade exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.

So being under the cap does not necessarily mean a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $58 million, and a team has $51.5 million committed to salaries. They also have a Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a trade exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions also count toward their team salary, increasing their total to $62 million, or $4 million over the cap. So the team actually has no cap room to sign free agents, and instead must use its exceptions to sign players.

Teams have the option to renounce their exceptions in order to reclaim their cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $51.5 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which then can be used to sign free agent(s).

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q26


Logically, what you are saying is true...you only get the exception if you are over the cap. In reality the exception is still there and takes up space against the cap for teams under the cap. It's just the mechanism that the CBA uses to prevent teams from using their cap space and then using the MLE as was suggested.

 

I really..REALLY wonder how you come to the idea Bogut is better than Asik considering both, this season's performance by both during the reg. and po's AND their health status...I don't get how you guys are drooling over trash elsewhere..

 

thats not the point.

I didnt NAME asik...I said we didnt have a good big man in general I was speaking of post play.

They have bogut who is better then asik offensively and prob close to him defensively and at least a better rem protector for sure. They also have david lee who is a top post player.

So added howard just strengthens a strength. He would completely makeover use from an offensive prospective.

 

[Duplicate Post]

 

Ok and whats your point? A team like the rockets situation can either (as bima pointed out in his latest article) make themselves appear over the cap and use exceptions because of what you stated or renounce their exceptions to to claim cap room. This allows them to then USE their cap space...not the exception.

If a team is over the salary cap but under the luxary tax threshold. They do not have access to cap space to add free agents so are allowed to add free agents via exceptions ONLY...

do you even know what you are arguing?

 

My point is to correct the erroneous statement (the one that I replied to) that suggested that we could sign Howard to cap space and then turn around and use the MLE to sign Jarrett Jack. That is not allowed by the CBA. That was the point of my original reply.

You then replied that teams only got an MLE if they were OVER the cap (that's why they call it an exception). That too is not true as shown by Coon FAQ section that I sited.

So, what exactly is it that you are arguing? Do you believe that you can sign a FA with cap space and then turn around and use the MLE? Do you still think that you only get an MLE if you are over the cap?

Those are the only two statements that I made. Which one(s) do you disagree with?

 

You are misunderstanding what you posted. After the capspace is used teams still have access to exceptions. I am not going to say I know which ones or how many are available . But I do know they are better for a team like us who was not over the cap or in luxury tax last year.

What you were quoting was that they cant use the exceptions before they use their capspace. They have to use their capspace up before they can add players with any exceptions.

this is what miami did when signed mike miller after it was way over the cap in adding the big 3.

I really dont know what your arguing about honestly.

 

Yes they can use all their cap space on dwight and still do a SNT trade for say smith (as long as they are no more than 4 million over the cap) and still add players via exceptions like the MLE as long as they are not past the luxary tax threshold...then they get like really small worthless exceptions. But could still do it if jack would take like 2 million a year.

That is not arguable, and happens every year.

 

Again, I'll quote the same Larry Coon FAQ Question:

This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question number 38). A team can't act like it's under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or trade exceptions

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q26

Fairly straight forward. A team can't sign free agents using cap room AND THEN use their Disabled, Bi-Annual or Mid-Level exceptions. Sorry, but I don't see how your interpreting that to only mean that they can't use their exceptions and then use cap space.

Did you notice that it says "AND THEN use their exceptions". That' not talking about using the exceptions first.

Secondly, using your exceptions first wouldn't make any sense. As soon as you signed a player with an exception then that players salary counts against your cap and your cap space is reduced by that amount. Exceptions only allow you to exceed the cap. They don't prevent the salary from counting against the cap.

 

Yes. This is correct

 

I am not going to keep explaining it...your misunderstanding. They absolutely can use their cap space and then still make additional roster moves. Its such common knowledge I am not even going to pull my Cap FAQ...but if you want you can read it more carefully and come to the same conclusion.

With ten minutes of googling you can probably have about ten examples of teams doing exactly what I suggested the last two years. Similar to, once again, Miami being under the cap then signing the BIG 3 thus putting them WAY over the cap, and then adding Mike Miller via the MLE

 

Not being specific to the Lakers.

Your post came off as saying the new apron restrictions only apply for one year, which is incorrect.

If thats not what you meant, maybe you should have been clearer about what you meant.

At the moment, most of the cap discussions re: Lakers is more about what they will have NEXT year and not in the future....if Howard is willing to wait for possible future success, than Im not gonna bother thinking about it cause we got no chance.

 

Nobody is saying that a team can't make roster moves after using cap space. What they can't do is use their MLE. They are perfectly free to sign guy for the veteran minimum and acquire players through trades. They are not, however, allowed to use their MLE after signing a free agent with cap space.

You had sited Mike Miller as an example earlier and I had forgotten to address that. Miller wasn't signed with the MLE. Miami had cap space and they used it up to sign Wade, Bosh and James. That left them at the cap (not over the cap. They had to sign Wade with part of their cap space because his cap hold was more than the actual salary the he ended up signing for). They then trade Michael Beasley to Minnesota for a draft pick. Draft picks don't count against the cap so that transaction left Miami under the cap again by the amount of Beasley's salary. Miami then used that available cap space to sign Miller. No MLE was used.

 

I'd like to take this moment to inform you that aelliott is one of our *original* capologists.

Please be a bit more respectful and understand what he is tryin to tell you...he *does* in fact know what he is talking about.

 

A bit of counter PR by the Lakers GM. Meaning there credence to the Howard stories and they are damn scared of losing him.

We retire your jersey, build you a statue. Sounds pretty desperate to me!

 

Well if I am wrong I apologize. I will do some research myself and figure it out. I didnt know anything about him, but I was under this impression for a while. I have talked to bima about it and he never corrected me either. So I assumed if I was wrong he would have shut me down.

Maybe bima didnt catch what I said. Ill read up and get back to this.

 

Here's the simplest explanation that I can give:

Let's hypothetically say that the Rockets trade Thomas Robinson for a draft pick, don't pick up options on Brooks, Garcia or Delfino. That would put their committed salaries at around $20.5M below the cap. That, coincidentally, is the starting salary for a max contract for Dwight Howard.

The problem is that we wouldn't really have $20.5M in cap space to use on Howard because our exceptions were also counting against the cap. For simplicity, let's forget about all other exceptions and say that we only have our MLE counting against the cap.

That would mean that we could only offer a free agent a maximum starting salary of $15.5M. That's not enough to sign Howard. The obvious solution is to renounce your MLE. That then allows you to offer Howard his max starting salary of $20.5M. But that also means that your MLE is gone. If we are lucky enough to sign Howard then we wouldn't have an MLE to use on other players.

Technically, you could retain your MLE and only sign a player for $15.5M but that doesn't make sense. There is no advantage in doing that as opposed to just renouncing the MLE (which would free up and additional $5M in cap space) and then just using that additional cap space to sign a player (rather than using the MLE).

Basically, you can't double dip. The exception amount counts against the cap. You can renounce it and take the cap space or you can use the exception, but you can't use both.

So in the case of the MLE, you can keep it and it reduces your cap space by $5M or you can renounce it and take the additional $5M in cap space.

In the Rockets situation they need to renounce all of their exceptions in order to free up enough cap space to sign Howard.

 

I will say I do not know which exceptions are available. Maybe not the FULL MLE...and I never said they would have access to all.

But that there was other options other then just vet min. I believe its at least like the Room Mle and biannual exceptions...but ill get back with you.

 

"ROOM MID-LEVEL EXCEPTION -- This exception is available only to teams that drop far enough below the cap to use cap room, and lose their Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 26). This exception cannot be used if the team has already used the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level or Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions. This exception becomes available once the team salary drops far enough that the team loses its other exceptions, and expires following the last day of the regular season."