cat's past 27 games...it's more than a hot streak.

I'd say both sides have a point. Cat's recent play has improved but we'll have to wait and see if he really has turned over a new leaf.

It's just that Timing refuses to acknowledge Cat's recent play as significant. That's your opinion.

What's the ol' cliche. Everybody has a$$holes and opinions and they both stink.

 

Why does mobley have to pass? He is a pretty effective scorer when compared to the rest of the team. I think they should give mobley the ball more in the fourth quarter because most of our team can't hit Free Throws. This includes Steve, Moochie, Kenny, Eddie, and especially cato.

 

Mobley is a good offensive player, but to lift his game to the next level he is going to need to learn how to pass. Mobley is going to start seeing more double-teams and defensive pressure from other teams, and he will have to pass it out effectively to his teammates instead of taking an ill-advised shot. For Mobley to reach that All-Star level, it would really help him to get an effective passing game.

Okay, the people you mentioned are not the best at free throws, but why shouldn't they get the ball. Kenny Thomas showed his ability against the Timberwolves that he can hit crucial shots. Steve has made two game winners this year (Detroit and Jazz), and hit the game-winning free-throw against the Timberwolves. Eddie Griffin has hit many important threes in the fourth quarter to lift the Rockets. These guys can all score, so why should Mobley be the only one who carries the scoring load in the fourth quarter? Just because he can hit free throws?

 

Cuttino Mobley's shot is the second most consistent shot in terms of form and timing on his shot, only to Glen Rice, on this team.

This is different than last year, therefore, it suprises me little to see that Mobley is having an excellent year.

Mobley is not a good passer, he is a good shooter, therefore, he should shoot.

 

hey, its not that your content is bad, its the argument that holds no merit. It is easy to predict what both sides will say, and, in the end, nobody will prove anything. It's pointless. I mean, you're seriously arguing, via a number of posts and word by word analysis about whether you did or didn't compare Mobley to Larry Bird earlier in the thread. Kinda like the argument you got in with Clutch prior to your dissapearance recently. It should go in one of the other four million threads bashing and/or praising Cuttino's offensive game.

Useful cogent analysis, which I know you can provide, would cover the Rockets, or the individual player's defense. Oddly, few of those threads exist and those that do generally fade away qucikly.

 

These are pts/shot taken excluding Cato. Mobley is not our most efficient scorer. It's probably smarter to learn how to pass.

Francis 1.25
KT 1.25
Mobley 1.19

Incidentally Andre Miller is at 1.28 so I guess he's a pretty efficient scorer or something.

 

How can you seriously say it's undeniable? I'll deny it right now as inconclusive. You say he's improved and I say let's see a whole season of it instead of 27 games before we say he's improved. If he's truly "improved" then he will maintain the consistency he's shown in the last 27 games over the rest of his career. We'll see if he does.

 

Bad ankles will kill your game. Healed ankles will dramatically enhance it.

2nd year, Cuttino averaged 15.8 pts. This year 21.6 so far, w/ around 25 over most of the recent season. Huge increase in productivity, needless to say.

Not bad for a 2nd rounder, considering that his only real role is to score.

 

Originally posted by crispee
I compared it to Dennis Johnson as well. In the context of my statements, I was referring to how some people must shoot difficult shots. If a player's money shot can't be blocked and they make them at a high clip, the shot is characterized as "unstoppable." The defense can't do anything about it.

At this point in Mobley's career you may be the only person alive characterizing any part of his game as unstoppable.

How many people do you talk basketball with, to not be able to following that context?? It is a very common conversation to talk about whether a player has an unstoppable money shot (a goto shot). The context was about the type of shot, not whether he could win a shooting contest with Larry Bird.

Simply because it is common for the every day Joe to compare any variety of dunks today with a Michael Jordan dunk doesn't mean I have to agree with it. It's pointless. You think Mobley's step back shot is unstoppable and I think he's a career 43% shooter, 44% this season. Every player alive has a favorite shot which they go to, that doesn't mean we compare them to X Hall of Famer and their shot.

You distorted that because you should give someone the benefit of the doubt to not suggest anyone but Reggie Miller can shoot like Bird. Obviously, you don't want to read fairness into someone's basketball analysis regarding Mobley.

You compared Mobley's step back shot to Larry Bird's and I'm not reading fairness into your basketball analysis? Whoa man...

besides, Mobley has an unstoppable step back. He can get it off at any time. He's been shooting 2s at 50% during the last 24 games that I have stats for. He's been practicing this. he did not really shoot this shot prior to this year that much, so you can throw out previous years. He shot it a little bit on the PNRs last year, but not much, and not the year before.

Great, we'll throw out the last 3 years and we'll just judge him on your 24 game stats. Is this some of that fairness stuff you were talking about?

Is it a prediction of mine to say that this step-back that he really started showcasing featuring in this camp is starting to jell? Maybe it is. but from my experience, the shot has been improved, and it is safe to say that he in on to something...that's why we are talking about his improvement.

Maybe it is improved and maybe he's just very hot right now. Players get on hot streaks all the time yet it's not a given that it's due to that player's improvement. You think maybe it is and I say well if it is then he'll play like this the rest of his career. We'll see then.

Now explain to me how ones 2ptr% stays the same and overall FG% stays the same but 3ptr% take a drastic jump...look it up; you are wrong. He actually is shooting the worst for the season at 2ptrs this year. But that is an aberration as you say due to the zones early. But now he has adjusted to them and is shooting 50% 2s since January.

I don't have stats for 2pt%, simply FG%. In my post I mispoke, I was referring to overall FG%. His 3pt% is up drastically while his overall FG% is about the same.

First 3 years, give or take.

43 FG% 35 Three/pt%

This season

44% 41%

I don't have 2pt stats but if you're shooting 45% from 2pt range and 41% from 3pt range then you're obviously going to shoot a better overall % than if you're shooting 45% from 2pt range and 35% from 3pt range. If his shooting has in fact improved as you claim then you should see a significant rise in BOTH percentages and not just in 3pt%.

Furthermore, in the last 46 games in 1999-2000, Cuttino shot exactly 50.0% on 2 pointers.

Is this more season splicing to make Cat look better than he is? You want the last 46 games of 99/00 and the middle 27 games of 01/02. Damn man...

Who cares about season stats when a shooter makes midseason corrections that stick for the remainder of the year? He learns from his mistakes and corrects his shooting problems. that's my contention....he improves from his mistakes.

Well then how could that midseason correction from 99/00 not carry over to 00/01? And why if he was improved then did he not carry that over from 01 to 02? I guess he's not improving from your example but rather had a hot streak. Are we destined to have Cat come out shooting 41% for the first 2 1/2 months of every season only to make a midseason correction and get hot again, all the while people jumping on the bandwagon to claim that he's improved as many of you are doing now?

So, you don't buy into a workaholic improving his shot? good grief man, you don't make sense at all.

I don't believe in a workaholic not improving his shot for 3 years and then shooting up like a rocket in only 3pt% in that 4th year. That makes no damn sense especially since he came out shooting bricks from two pt range and you've said he's made a midseason correction. If he made a midseason correction then what did he improve on during the offseason? Did he finally find the fountain of good shots or something? Why not a gradual increase each season? Gradual increases are indicative of improvement, big spikes are not indicative of anything unless they're sustained for seasons to come.

besides, you underestimate how hard that step-back jumper is to hit. If it were so easy to practice like a freethrow, then why didn't Shandon ever learn to shoot?

I don't believe a step-back jumper is fundamentally any tougher to learn than any other move.

Enough with the theories. If you can't see a difference in his 3 pt stroke this year, i don't know what to say other than you are the one with theories about zone rules have improved Cats 3s from 35% to 42%?

I'm the one pointing out that Cat has shot exactly 35% from 3pt range for three straight years. You want to ignore all of that and just say oh lordy he's improved! I don't think it's a coincidence that his 3pt shooting has improved ever since the new rules were enacted. It's pretty simple really. People know Cat wants to drive and he's difficult to stop on the drive so they lay off and play a soft zone as the rules allow, inviting the outside shot. Thus Cat has more free room to get up 3's without a hand in his face. I like that theory a lot better than oh he's just improved dramatically this year when he didn't improve at all for 3 years.

First off, I do not agree that Francis is taking a lesser role. That statement is a big stretch and further indication that all you want to do is win an argument. Kenny is getting calls at a rate similar to Maurice, and more if he succeeds. Francis is the primary playmaker. Everyone can see that. He runs the show. Do you not agree with that? How is he taking a lesser role? Mobley doesn't run the offense.

Francis has been plagued by migraines all year. It is obvious that has affected his ability to be aggressive and his ability to build on last season. Francis is often relegated to standing around the three point line while Moochie runs his dribble dribble fake show or Mobley runs his isos. Francis' field goal percentage is way down from last year and Mobley actually averages one more shot/game than Francis does. Yes, our all-star point guard takes less shots/game than Mobley.

you seem majorly preoccupied with points/game.

Don't points win games?

Even if Francis's role became lesser, you yourself say that that allows Kenny and Cat to "explore their game." If their exploration produces increasing better numbers, isn't that individual improvement. sheesh.

Better numbers don't necessarily mean improvement, it can mean more opportunities. Mobley averaged 15 shots/game 38 minutes/game last year and this year he's up to 18 shots/game 42 minutes/game. Even if he shot the identical FG% as last year his production would be increased simply because of more shots taken. Simple stuff.

Francis has nothing to do with individual improvement regarding Kenny's Raging Bull move being more successful, or Mobley's increasingly better shooting.

Yep that's why Mobley's shooting % was hovering around 42% when Francis was out. Nothing to do with it I guess.

You can say Francis helps Mobley and Kenny get more spacing, but they still have to create their own shots and make them. They are shot creators, afterall.

Francis is our best player and usually gets most of the attention. When Francis isn't out there they focus on Mobley and no way in hell he's shooting 47% without Francis there. I don't know how you can fail to see that Francis being on the court makes it easier for Mobley and Kenny to score.

Closing out the last 46 games of 1999-2000 at 46.4% FG% and 50.0% 2pt shooting is a significant piece of a season. You might call it cherry picking, but coaches don't and neither do players.

That is an indication of midseason adjusments taking hold.

Why didn't your midseason adjustments from 99/00 take hold to this year? Are we on a brand new set of midseason adjustments that will disappear as soon as we tip it off again next season?

If you call that cherry picking, then I call that further indication of how you don't understand how improvement happens in midseasons, or how defenses adjust midseason to a player's improvement. Again, you seem like a Fantasy Head trying to win an argument based on numbers logic.

So what your saying is that if Cat only played from midseason on that he'd be an MVP? LOL

So you don't think 42% on 3 pointers proves someone can shoot. You know there is only one player in the entire league that has shot more 3s and a higher % that Cuttino this year...only one. Further, I thought your complaint was that he just takes bad shots.

I don't think 42% in one season means a heck of a lot as you seem to. If 42% means so much now why doesn't 35% over three years mean anything? Oh right, he's "improved". We'll see next year if he's truly improved.

Mobley's bad shots usually occur off the drive. Off balance fadeway jacks and runners.

Cuttino is an outstanding shooter. That's why it is so hard for him to get an open shot. Do you not agree with that?

I don't believe 28 games is much proof of Mobley being an outstanding shooter. When he does it every year then I'll call him an outstanding shooter.

If it's so hard for him to get an open shot why doesn't he PASS more? Hmmmmmmm...

So had I started a thread that said, "I think Cuttino has made a mechanical adjustment to his shot, and is reading ISOs better." You would have been OK with that.

Well, that's exactly what I said.

Yep, I'd have been fine with that. That wasn't all that you said exactly. I never critiqued your assesment of reading iso's better or mechanical adjustments. It was the Bird thing that I didn't care much for.

<b>bottomline: If you are not going to allow for drastic improvement in young players, you will never be an NBA Scout and you will never win in Fantasy Leagues. </B>

I can't be an NBA scout!? DAMN!! That would be fun.

 

And the Cat haters come out of the woodwork...

Timing - it's very simple. The guy is scoring 25ppg for us now. You don't complain about that kind of performance, especially when your team is losing.

Cuttino will never be Steve. And Steve, incidentally, will never be Kidd (or Kobe, for that matter). They have different roles, and they play them well.

Cuttino's job: make points. Not to block, rebound, make assists - or even to really defend generally. It is to generate points.

He is doing that very well now, thank you.

 

Hahaha I Love how I'm a Cat hater when I present the data he's accumulated. If I'm a hater then some of you must be his cousins.

It is actually very simple. You think he's scoring 25 ppg for us and I think he's scoring 21 ppg for us. You think he's a 47% shooter and I think he's barely a 44% shooter.

Cuttino's job is to help us win games, not to show us how one dimensional he can be.

 

Cutino's job is to score. Are you arguing that he does not do that?

He scores well. He makes plays when needed, too. He's Clutch.

Do you deny this?

 

What are you trying to make him the next Shareef Abdur-Rahim? The man who puts up nice fluffy stats every year on crappy teams? Cuttino's job is to help win games. Mobley's not a sixth man, he's a starter remember? If you want to turn him into a sixth man off the bench to focus on just scoring then great but if you're telling me that his job is just to score then I think you're nuts. This is a TEAM. It isn't Mobley and the Passing Rebounding Defenders.

And he's clutch? Huh!? Define your version of clutch please because I haven't seen Mobley in the playoffs for quite a while now.

 

Well of course his job is to win games. What, do you think I'm trying to argue the tanking position here?

So, his job is to "win games", presumably single-handedly? His job is to generate points, period. When he scores 25 pts, that is fully 25% of our scoring. When he scores 38 it tends to be on a night when we really need it (Clutch).

What in the hell else do you want him to do - other than scoring? Tell me what it is, and I'll name the player who's supposed to be doing it. His job is to score, plain and simple.

Why are you arguing that?

Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

He is scoring over 25ppg. Argue all you want, and try to confuse it all you want, but that's an awesome #, and it most certainly contributes heavily to the wins.

How many wins would we have without him?

 

Originally posted by treeman
Well of course his job is to win games. What, do you think I'm trying to argue the tanking position here?

I thought you were arguing his job was to score.

So, his job is to "win games", presumably single-handedly? His job is to generate points, period. When he scores 25 pts, that is fully 25% of our scoring. When he scores 38 it tends to be on a night when we really need it (Clutch).

His job is to help win games period. Whether that's scoring points, assisting to teammates, playing defense, getting Rudy his water, whatever.

So you're saying that Mobley only scores a lot of points when we need them? Wow, SuperMobley in the house. Do you know our record when Mobley scores 25 points or more? It's 12-12. You want to call that clutch? Is that how far the Rockets have fallen to where we call .500 being a clutch performance?

By the way, there is a difference between generating points and scoring points. Maybe you meant generating himself points because I've shown his assist/shot ratio on this team is quite poor.

What in the hell else do you want him to do - other than scoring? Tell me what it is, and I'll name the player who's supposed to be doing it. His job is to score, plain and simple.

I want him to play defense, pass the ball, rebound... the things that players do.

Why are you arguing that?

Arguing what? That he needs to play defense and pass the ball? I dunno... maybe because those are the types of things that help win games?

Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

Wha? You're telling me Cat's job is to score and I'm telling you his job is to help the team win. If he scores a lot of points and we go to the lottery every year then Cat is doing his job? I don't think so.

He is scoring over 25ppg. Argue all you want, and try to confuse it all you want, but that's an awesome #, and it most certainly contributes heavily to the wins.

Baaahaha... Mobley is averaging 21.6 pts/game according to NBA.com. If you think he's scoring over 25ppg then you need some sleep or a new prescription.

Hey fella, what wins? We're 25-39 right now. If you want to talk the last 27 games we're 12-15. Any of those winning %'s will get you a lottery pick.

How many wins would we have without him?

I dunno, who you giving me in return for SuperMobley?

 

Folks, Timing is argumentative to the sake of being silly. Cat has played better over the last 20-30 games or so. Nobody is suggesting he is now GOD. He has showed improvement...that is all. Let's now just hope he can sustain it.

That's all. Everybody, let it go. This is a rediculous discussion.

 

I was against Timing in his previous posts. I do think Cat is playing great. Maybe he needs more convincing. Timing, we've been playing well, and Cat has been playing excellent basketball, you agree with that right? That's the only thing being said. The rest of the season is not part of the subject. He's improved his game recently.


BUT, I must say...I will NEVER EVER support someone who's in the starting line-up who's only job is to score. Never. No way. Rebounding is not something required from a SG. But his assist numbers are not decent. Decent is 3.1 or 3.2 for him. I better see some defense next season.


Just to score? That's his job? That's not a good argument. Now I think you're just looking for ways to try to tell Timing he's wrong.


Just SCORE POINTS??


I refuse to settle for that from one of the cornerstones of our Franchise.

 

Timing, it is stubborn refusal to allow a normal basketball comment like this that is making you absolutely ruin a nice thread about Mobley's improvement. Just say you are a Mobley hater and move on.

You continue to refuse to acknowledge that I characterized a shot as the one that Dennis Johnson and Larry Bird used to gain separation. You continue to refuse to understand that that is a normal basketball comment, to say what types of shots people like and choose to make their goto. Saying a player is using the same shot as Dennis Johnson does not mean Dennis is better at it than Mobley. It provides a context for describing a shot via anecdote. I did mention Dennis Johnson. For the very same reason, saying a player is using the same shot for his goto as Larry Bird does not mean Mobley is better at it. People talk about basketball that way. If you knew how to talk about basketball rather than silly stat theories about Assist per Shot and blinded stat logic, you would know how scouts characterize shots exactly like I did. Scouts do not assume you meant that Cat can shoot like Larry, because they know no one is comparable in shooting except Reggie.

It's like your insistence that I was saying Cat shoots as well as Larry Bird proves you know nothing about basketball, and you want to just distort word.

Besides, it is unstoppable in this run. Unstoppable means the defense cannot prevent the player from shooting it despite desiging various defense to do just that, and the player is hitting it at a good clip. 28 games is long enough for the NBA defenses to make adjustments and get the ball out of Mobley's hands. Clearly, not even Minnesota's vaunted defense could prevent his torrid shooting. Besides, Mobley's 43% lifetime does not characterize his step-back/jump-back jumper %, and you know that. First, he has not used this shot his whole career, and, secondly, you have to remove all the other shots from your calculation; you dork. And in this run, the best we can do is show that Cat is shooting 50% on 2s. That is a good clip in the run we we're referring to.

But, go ahead, just distort everyone's words again. Because Mobley haters who cannot acknowledge this run as improvement need to distort reality, and say it is due to rules changes and Francis's migraines.

go ahead timing, say lifetimes stats proves Mobley hasn't improved again. Look around, I think you are the only one.

 

What's silly if for you to say the last 20-30 games is indicative of improvement. You don't know that and your comment about let's now just hope he can sustain it is proof that you don't know that. If he's improved then you'd not have to hope that he'd sustain it because he's improved. Why hope?

 

Another monster game by Cat. Well done.