Great post Major. I don't care about some of the posters calling me a non-fan. Im going to continue to voice my opionion about this team. If some of you can't take someone else giving negative criticism about the Rockets, then that's your problem. The point is the Rockets are about to miss the playoffs for the third straight year and I'm sick of this team being in the lottery. The Rockets can blame injuries on this bad season all they want, but if the Rockets continue to have the same underlying issues other than injuries next year, they will be in the lottery again. And I'm not going to go on ignoring these issues like some of you posters.
Most of us are not ignoring these issues, but we choose not to harp on them, repeatedly. We know the problems exist, and need to be corrected. However, these problems will not go away just by continuously shoving said problems down our throats. As a coach, I've suffered through a few bad seasons like this. The absolute worse thing a coach can do is lose faith in his players. Once that happens, they will tune you out and your season is over. Rudy knows this, and I'm sure he will continue to play up all the good values a player has, no matter how bad he sucks. It's a shame this board can't have the same mentality. It used to.
Actually game winning shots are rare, usually when someone says a player is clutch it usually means they'll hit a "big shot" in a game. How many game winning shots can you remember from anybody other then Jordan? Maybe Reggie Miller. I can remember one from Cat outside of the Golden State game, http://www.clutchcity.net/game.cfm?gameID=117 But other then that, can anybody really remember 3 or 4 game winning shots from ANYBODY outside of Jordan or Miller? I also remember last year when Mobley went a long stretch scoring points in bunches in the 4th quarter.
Major...after reading that...I now dub you official Suckologist Apologist. Don't feed us the "just don't respond to them crap" when the crap takes over a bbs forum. Sometimes I just enjoy bashing their stupidity and utter lack of real facts, rather than put out effort to explain what the coaches and players might be dealing with, when most of the responses we get back are from the suckologist...and their apologists...<b>because other contributors are fleeing this SUCK SUCK SUCK bbs</b>. Yeah, I'll start a constructive critique thread that will only spawn more suck suck suck thread replies (not reply posts mind you) with the "I don't care what anyone else says [in other threads]" crap. It is their damn repetition and cascading blaming indignation that only comes from people with no constructive criticism in their childish brain. There is a difference, and everyone sees it, but apparently not you apologists. What bothers me is you Apologists. If we choose to bash suck, suck, suck threads; why do you defend them with this oh-so-Rationalist approach to "well, we do suck"? You never start suck threads do you? Why be the Suckologist Apologist then. Do you like a bbs dominated by Suckologistts. Why don't you start the constructive criticism threads, instead of asking me too, or better yet, instead of asking the suckologist to. Can't you see that Jeff, popeye, thacabbage, cbfc and other rational attempts have probably just fueled the sucks repetition....how else do you explain endless repetition in new threads with leading disclaimers "I don't care what anyone else says." or "Enough is Enough" "I'm not naming names but" You cannot reason with endless new threads of Childish Suckologists repetition, and you cannot deny that some reasonable posters refuse to start threads now because of it. Personally, I refuse to start a decent critique thread, if I'll just be dubbed a Rudy Apologist and get no decent critique back. I really enjoy TPL's critique from going to every game...he critiques negatives better and better...and leaves me thinking, wanting to check out what he said. I enjoy Cato13, who goes to every game, and being a retired baller. But when is the last time you've seen them start a thread. I can sympathize; it is like some of us just don't want to put forth giving a subtle breakdown just for the fun of it (like Hey Mobley is getting an entry in a different position, and I have quotes--by Jonathan Feigen in the Chronicle) when we see people bash Jonathan Feigen as an Sunshine Apologist for writing that. It is futile. So screw it. You start the thoughtful threads then. <b>Suckologist Invent Facts</b> I'll bash the suckologist, because they are basketball morons who can't even tell Griffin got schooled by O'Neal for 2 4th quarter dunks, not Thomas. And they can't see that Mobley always shoots a fadeaway, so that last shot was his natural shot. Not at the clip of Pedja's preferred fadeawy, but calling someone's well practiced favorite go to shot stupid is stupid. It is like saying Francis is stupid for trying a turnaround jumper (if he ever would instead of his foolish back to the basket jiggle move and flying runner). They can't see that Francis ran around a picket fence as a decoy and Mobley followed him as the real option. They don't want to discuss that the play was that Francis drew the opposition, which allowed Mobley a 14' foot shot that he practices a lot. They don't see that driving into O'Neil only brings collapsing defense, not a sure thing dish and slam. They don't see that Mobley's only pass was a skip pass passively over the picket fence. Yet, Mobley sucks and is selfish and is stupid for running the play. Or Rudy sucks. Nope. It was a horrendous shot and Rudy sucks for calling that play. So, sure Major, I'll just start a thread giving my interpretation to see what people felt about Francis being a decoy (yet being strongside with Mobley). <b>Longtime Season Ticket Holders nearby me thought it was a good play, decent look</b> You know, the friends I've made in my section...we all thought it was a good play, with a decent shot at the tie. But no, we are just all Apologists. You know why, because this bbs is dominated by suckologist. <b>What are Suckologists</b> Suckologists only root for superstars on a losings team...everyone else sucks. Further they envy the role players on championship teams like Raja Bell or Malik Rose, yet our's just plan suck. This phenomenon is due to they stare at only the superstars and playoff teams. They cannot tell when a role player playing well unless it is a contender that is schooling someone with role players for double teaming a stud. Suckologist will not talk about how Francis had to pass to Walt 4 times in nearly in a row in the 3rd Q, because Walts man was leaving him to cut off Francis. yet. Walt and Rudy suck for not giving Francis more shots, despite the fact Walt did not play in the 4th (those are fact). <b>Critics and Reason get your Labeled, so we'll label them Suckologists</b> I can't even point rationale for Francis's 8 shots when he passed to Walt 4 times in a row in the 3rd quarter, or that Moochie was mismatched against Reggie and smoking him in the early-mid 4th. No, there is no rationale for Francis not getting more shots, despite his early 4th foul, because then I just suck as a Rudy Apologist. Do you think I really am interested to break down a loss with negatives and positives to hear you and other longtimers tell me I'm a Rudy Apologist. If I'm a Rudy Apologist then you are a Suckologist Apologist. you can deal with that label, if you call me a Rudy or Mobley Apologist for trying to disect differently than childish posters on this board.
Oddly enough, the fact that you are able to predict what they reactions would have been only helps to prove the point. It shows that those were actual problems that the team FIXED before winning thier championship. As cann be seen from pooh's posts, it shows what needs to be fixed for the Rockets to get betterr. On Cuttino Mobley - really good player, maybee the best one-on-one in the league believe it or not. But often the bad outweighs the good. It is rare to see Mobley make a play and not coomplain to thhe refs on the way down the court (he may have a case but you cant doo this all the time...youd be better off playing full court pressure defense every once in a while). There is no beneefit to telling someone that youre going to take the last shot. You might be trying to trick them but its too big of a gamble to take. As pooh mentions in his post , these problems need ot be fixed. Ironically, it may be ebcause he is such a big Rockets fann that he gets so emotional about it and ends up using harsh language that a lot of posters on this board dont like. Nevertheless, it is a very useful comment as evidenced by the fact that when fixed, teams can have a lot of success and possible win championshiips (btw, was Vernon Maxwell even on the playoff roster that second year?) Popeye- Two comments. First, you make the first statement almost as if to say...well it was ok to abash him beforee but not now (whereas if you dont like bashing in general than he should have never been bashed). Plus, he is STILL as bad as everyone expects. GOing to the games makes it painfully obvious. He hasnt RAN down the court on more than a few times a game his whole career. Rebounds REGULARLY sail right over his head (thinkk the reecent Pistons game where there were two or three possesions in the first half where DEtroit had 4 or 5 offensive rebounds a possesion simply because the man in rebounding positioon (Cato) made no effort to actually get the ball. This isnt bashing, but just pointing out that Cato is still a problem (althhough this should be obviouus - I dont know why it isnt in Canada?) Second, whereas you (or Canadians) see a playerr desperately trying to help his team win in KT, most on this board, including myself, see, and have seen for a while (at least Ive been dissapointed with it for a while) a playerr desperately tryying to improve his own stats and prove he's a starter who deserrves big money in the future. Otherrwise like your post.
Rights to Criticize The same "right" to call every game from a "suck" negative perspective, (or rotating select roster players as ) the new "suck" negative reason we lost .... extends to me also. I choose to see as much positive, as much "non-suckness" (if you will) as some of you .... who due to the injury to your fan pride (I guess) see only failure in effort. I choose to see the humor when fairly responsible people get "sucked-in" collectively on an isolated published rag article spins the hometown outake that an opponent talked trash and that was why we lost the game. I know some of you have got to see the humor in that also. God I hope so. Okay, so we have not fielded a championship calibre team this year, due to .... whatever circumstances (pick one). But we lost the game in question because the other team matched and executed better than us down the stretch. Not because Mobes supposedly trashed his counterpart a la Jordan, Francis, GP, Mario or even Zeke in his early years. My Frustration Lately my frustration is focused on not team losses as much as the unreasonableness of the criticism that is exerted everytime they do lose. It's not the fact that most see either absolute negativity or blinding positivity in a game outcome. It's the prevailing attitude with some that everything the Rockets do is a negative. The actual outcome seems to be superfilious to the need to find someone to blame for it. It appears - regardless of win or lose - the Rockets are **** on. The only thing that changes is the newest guilty party. Yesterday it was Rudy. Today it is Mobley. Tommorrow it may well be .... who? ..... Calvin Murphy? .... the trade for Barkley? ..... Major, et al Most fans can accept constructive criticism about the Rockets. You (and a few others) do make very good negative-toned points at times. I'm just asking for some balance in the criticism. In my judgement, and by no means do I speak for anyone but myself, is that fans should easily recognize that there is a need for balance. Suckoligists Consistent, repeated, negative fandom, seems to me to be an oxymoron. If a self-purported "Rocket fan" only sees the negative, persistently stresses the negative and appears to relish the thought of accepting the "truths" of a Rocket game only when it is a negative ... it begs the question ..... Are they a Rocket fan? If so, why? There doesn't seem to be much joy in it for them. My Point I have always measured the heart of a fan by what they don't say when a team is stumbling ... not by what they naggingly insist on saying every time they do stumble. Crisp I think you lost me there somewhere, but it sure was interesting reading it. Cheers all.
First...Kenny and Griffin should be competing heavily,,,it is helping Kenny rebound better and defend better. What? Is he selfish for improving on everything??? Why do you keep saying in nearly every post your interpretation of what the whole bbs is saying? First, that approach to qualifying your opinion as majority, so it must be right, adds no more strength to majority opinion. Secondly, I don't think it is majority opinion on this bbs or the rockets. I started a post about who best represents the heart and sole of the Rockets....over 120 posters voted, and Kenny Thomas won. Do you want me to pull that poll? Also, rational observers of the Rockets see Thomas running pretty much the identical plays as Mo' did last year, at pretty much the same clip. That is not selfish, that is a play called by the bench. Oh, but Kenny doesn't pass to Griffin....Griffin doesn't pass to Kenny, eitehr. Maybe it is becuase they are a skip pass away from each other....oh? "Well Kenny doesn't pass like he used to." On the PF iso play, Kenny passes when he is double teamed. His passing is dictated by the defense, by in large. He is shooting no more or no less than the start of the season. bottomline: It is an outragious accusation to say that Kenny is purposely disrupting offensive flow to up his stats. Further, it is insulting to say that most people on the bbs agree when in actually, you are only hearing echoes of agreement. I bet you that if Clutch does a post on the front page 1. At 32mpg each, Is Kenny v Griffin competition hurting the Rockets offense by making Kenny a ball hog, or 2. Is competition naturally causing them to play harder on both ends of the court to our longterm benefit. #2 wins hands down in 1000 vote. Bet me...
Sorry Jay - missed your post while I was typing. My point about the Canadian's perspective had far less to to do with Canada itself or Canadians in general ... as it had to do with: - how refreshing it was to step into a pub, have a decent and sometimes contenious issue discussed with positive as well as negative view points expressed about my team. - how those I talked to (endlessly and with more than a few ales or rye) are both astute enough to appreciate the leaps and bounds a team must go through to gain respectibility and they are not afraid to say it. - how refreshingly comfortable they are in their own team's stumblings (Raptors, Celts, Knicks, Heat, Bulls) because they can see the progress is attained only after years of work. Some even think we are well ahead of the rebuild curve. I kinda agree. - how much respect the Houston franchise had in other markets. - how players like KT,KW,Torres, etc... are appreciated for their efforts regardless of the perceived motives or the presence of some hidden agenda. As an added bonus, while I was away I was spared the narrow-minded negativism that has infested this board about virtually everything the Rockets did since I left .
oeilpere, Hopefully I didn't lose you when alluding to the bashing of Jonathan Feigen's awesome article with loads of quotes talking about our offensive adjustments recently. Rudy, Boylen, Walt, Moochie and Mobley talk about subtleties like who likes the ball where, and "red" and "blue" defenses that they dub the opponents defenses. You know what that means, right? That means we are using single syllable names to help the players yell out the defense. They are yelling out the difference in a true double team vs a passive double team that would have been called illegal d last year. The fact they are yelling that out means we are a reactionary flex offense, imo, as we often assumed. You should check it out at Chronicle.com. But don't read the post by NIKEstrad, that got off to a bad start and never recovered from the Rudy supports saying "see, told you" which merely provoked a useless argument that Rudy still sucks, rather than a refreshing bar talk about the quotes and system adjustments. Man, you are so right. Basketball talk can be so much better to include both negative and positive critics. I've had several this year. But only in bars, and on the phone with older brothers, old coaches and other mentors.
HP Never saw the article, I've been in Atlantic Canada (Nova Scotia) and North East US (New England) since mid December. Just spent about twenty minutes looking for Jon's piece and can't find it. Please post http if you can. Thnx.
Hi Cat, I actually only read the last post in this thread (was reading it from the bottom up) and without knowing the rest of the discussion just want to point out that I think it DOES hurt the team less if ONLY those guys who can back it up talk trash. If you have "more game" and can back it up, "proving the talk right" demoralizes the opponent. However, if you talk and then mess up, it demoralizes yourself and your own team. Therefore, if someone like Michael Jordan or, to a lesser degree, Steve Francis, talks trash and then actually gets it done 80 % of the time (just a hypothetical number), it hurts the team less than if someone like Cuttino Mobley talks trash and gets it done 40 % of the time...
Sorry, I just realized that your post was only the last post on the first page of the thread, perhaps someone has responded to that already...let me go back and read the whole thread first .
I disagree. If Cato talks trash, the opponent becomes vulnerable while they are rolling on the floor laughing their asses off!
Oeilpere & Crispee, I want to thank you guys for putting the negative ninnys in their place. I've resisted tearing into them, because 1)I'm not as knowledgeable of the intricacies of the sport as you guys are & 2)I didn't think it would do any good. One thing I've noticed, is that the number of new negative threads after a loss far exceed the number of positive ones after a victory. The negative has gotten old & I've found myself, more & more so, looking for a select few posters to even bother reading. I've also noticed that the ones I enjoy reading the most are the ones that don't post as often anymore. However, it does appear that the suckologists have taken their leave from this thread. I guess they're like the roaches that scurry for cover when the light is turned on at night. In this case, the light being a rational argument that involves more than one syllable. Keep up the good work & welcome back Oeilpere.
Det, I read the quote and said, "Well, Harrington gets the last laugh." The point is that this is a trash talking game. Does Al not know if Mobley is bluffing? Is this more proof that Cuttino is dumb? Or is Harrington just laughing double at him through the media. Does Cuttino's trash talking hurt the Rockets? Don't over think it. On trash talking courts (try some pickup on the US Army courts), most everyone trash talks. There is quiet talking and loud talking. It is almost like a survival mechanism. It is like trash talking in cards or dominos. Hell, even mild mannered guys like Duncan will speak into your ear. The point is that it is an accepted extension of the game. Like making a personal side bet. Who knows if Al and Mobley were jawing all game, and maybe they bluffed each other a couple of times, rendering further talking not worth changing your game plan. These guys talk trash and ignore it on face in the same second. I'm not so sure how many actually recalculate their play based on trash talking prophecies. Bird delivering while talking trash does not make him more effective...just more cool. Failing while talking trash does not mean you hurt your team more by talking....you just give the opponents double pleasure in laughing at you. Then again, maybe Cuttino does really suck and this is more proof!
sorry didn't read the whole thread. But I sure as hell hope any of you aren't thinking that Cat informing a player of his intentions to shoot the ball is anything other than stuipid. Thats not trash talk. You don't come out of a huddle with a few seconds left and proclaim to the guy guarding you that your going to shoot the ball, especially when you have many other teammates who are just as capable. Thats pure self absorbtion and stupidty. So in essence Cat is saying to himself and to the guy guarding him that no matter what the circumstances, no matter how many guys collapse on him, no matter how wide open his teammates are, no matter what develops, hes gonna shoot the mother freakin ball! Wow! I think this proves just how narrow and limiting Cats vision really is out there. This type of thinking sucks the basketball talent right out of him.
T Thanks. I am looking for the article now in between trying to clear the accumulation of paperwork they decided to pile on my desk while I was gone. Arrrgggghhhhhhh! PipGimp That busted me up. Hottoddie Thanks,man. I had several of you while up north (hot toddies that is) and only thought of you once. And I was four sheets to the wind with antifreeze in me blood at the time. RocketBooster, et al I won't belabor or reiterate the argument that Crispee just astutely made, nor will I try to point out the absurdity that exchanging barbs and double-downs all night with someone then saying that you are going to shove the ball up their ass as a last parting remark .... deems you an idiot .... But if that in fact were true .... then Reggie Miller for one is also an idiot who has narrow,limited vision who has the " talent sucked out of him". He says that all the time, even though everyone in the place knows he's getting it anyway. When asked once why he says that, why he provokes at the end of the game .... possible taking some advatage away from his chances ... he stated (sorry, I'm paraphrasing here): 1. Everyone knows I'm getting the rock. 2. It makes most guys over react to me. 3. Some days I don't get it and it opens someone else up bigtime. I guess my parting shots to you are: Do you think this happens only in isolated, rare moments in the NBA? Would you still be arguing your point if Mobes had made it? Do you think Al Harrington would have been quoted if he had been beat? I appreciate you view on this subject. I just don't agree with the importance you seem to place on it.
Wow, you got all that from this Al Harrington quote: "He warned me," Harrington said. "I appreciate that." You must be psychic. Harrington then followed up with this: "I thought he was going to pull up for 3 and try to be the savior. Fortunately for me he drove and I was able to give him a little body." Notice the key word "fortunately". To me, this means Harrington was still unsure of what Cat was going to do. But hey, Harrington could have asked Rocketbooster. He knew what Cat meant.
