WOW, great discussion guys Amazing i left yesterday afternoon my time, with this throw away post (mostly to get back at Clutch) and I comeback the next morning and it has evolved into a raging discussion, cool. ------------------ CUT Tino These Heaves are just getting Ridiculous!
I agree with HeyP, Cuttino is a better one-on-one player than Steve. Right now if I had my choice of who gets the ball and we are down by one with 10 secs, I put the ball in Cat's hands. Cuttino can get the rim a lot easier than Francis and he has a quicker first step. Cuttino blows by his defender while Francis gets his defender off balance and then breaks him down. Also if you want to talk Stats, Cuttino has more overall points, less TOs, has almost made more free throws than Steve has attempted. Really though they both need each other and both are "equally" important. They don't complain about each other so why should we? I am glad we don't have a Kobe/Shaq situation. ------------------ Rockets Season Ticket Holder
Damn we have our own, Kobe... Why.... Hate Kobe... Plz Cat don't turn into Kobe.... Nice scoop VOR on the Kobe/Cat comparison for their 3 first years in the league. Comparing year 2 and 3 where the minutes were close: PTS: EVEN AST: adv. Kobe REB: EVEN TO: adv. Cat AST/TO: EVEN ST: EVEN BS: adv. Kobe 3%: adv. Cat FT%: EVEN FTA: EVEN FG%: adv. Kobe (Close but Kobe bettered his % the 3rd year, so I guess Cat develops slower ) FGA: EVEN Although Kobe shot it better the third year than Cat they get even points on even fga, so I guess Cats edge on 3pt-ers and a slight edge in getting points from the line evens it up. Kobe played 37.9 mins the 3rd year. Cat plays 36.0 mins currently his third year. ------------------ We can reach our destination, but it's still a ways away. [This message has been edited by Heath2000 (edited February 09, 2001).]
HP, Francis is not careless with the ball. Yesterday the nail on his ring finger came off, so I can understand him not being at his best with the dribble. In a couple games he has lost it, but the last few games he hasnt been careless with the ball. At times he is careless with the pass though, and teams play the passing lanes on him. He needs to improve on that. You really cant complain about the fast break because he has been running it very well of late. I dont think that trend will stop. I agree though, I wish he would just push every time, even if he doesnt think there is a fastbreak. Carlos Rogers deserves more time, because he is the best big man the rocks have for the fast break type game. Cat's shot selection has been great the past few games. I LOVED it in Philly, when he saw Francis was hot and conceded to him. Cat pretty much stayed out of the offense since he wasn't hot for the most part. It's so nice to have a rarity, in a lefty with one of, if not the best, first steps in the league. I wish he would go baseline more on his ISO's though. My dream, would be for them to be playing alongside each other one day in the allstar game. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited February 09, 2001).] [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited February 09, 2001).]
Comparing Kobe and Cat's first 3 years in the league wouldn't be an accurate assessment, unless you compare the fact that Kobe just turned 18 when he entered the league and Cat was 24 years old his rookie season. Of course, the numbers are going to skew favorably for the guy who had 5 years college experience versus a high school pup. The fact is Cat is going to be 27 when next season starts and learning new tricks and nuances becomes harder and harder the longer you've played. Kobe can still learn when he turns 23 before the start of the 2001-2002 season. Kobe is one of the top 3 most dominating forces in today's game, something the Cat will never be. The Cat has a chance to be a damn GOOD player if he learns and masters some of the subtleties of the game. If Kobe learns and masters some of the subtleties of the game, he will be a Legend. The statistic that just boggles the mind is that Mobes only has a career average of 2.4 APG. That even includes his first season when he was exclusively a point guard. For a guy that gets in the lane so much, he creates so little for others. While guys like Bryant and Iverson get criticized for being ball hogs, yet they average 4.5 APG from the 2 spot, which is excellent. Hey, I'm a big time Mobes fan, but I'm getting tired of people who unfairly bash players like Kobe Bryant and especially, Allen Iverson. ------------------
I agree with a lot of the points you made. Mobley's comparisons to Kobe and Iverson are not accurate assessments. People will start throwing out statistics and compare them with Mobley's, but overall, Mobley doesn't compare to Kobe or Iverson. And I don't think he will be as good as any of those players either. ------------------ [This message has been edited by pooh222 (edited February 09, 2001).]
Allen Iverson is over-rated. A good player on a team with role players and Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league right now but he makes poor decisions. And if you want to talk about JACKers, these guys lead the pack. Cuttino doesnt even shoot as much as they do. ------------------ Rockets Season Ticket Holder
Come on now, I think its been fairly well established that the Rockets offensive system is not conducive to racking up gaudy assist numbers. Also, how dominant would Kobe or AI be if the only shot the ball 15 times a game? Mobley already shoots the ball better than Iverson, just 9.2 times less per game. ------------------ The Rockets will be the NBA champions. Believe.
"Allen Iverson is over-rated. A good player on a team with role players." There are a lot of good players on teams with role players. But how many of those players takes there team to the 2nd round of the playoffs two years in a row. Iverson is a GREAT PLAYER. You think if you would have put Francis on that team, that they would have achieved the success they had. Of course not. The guy is the ultimate warrior out there, playing with the type of ailments that would proved to be career ending for Kelvin Cato. There is not a single player in the NBA who plays harder, and more fearless than this guy. And I'm sick and tired of all the criticism he gets. Disregard his antics off the court, and you'll begin see one of the most exhilarating players ever to play this game. A man that stands 6 feet tall(which I'm very doubtful of) and 155 lbs battling Goliahs in the paint every single night. The man has career averages of 5.7 APG and 4.1 RPG. 5.7 APG for this supposedly selfish, ball hog. He's played 75 % of his career a the 2 spot and he almost averages more APG than our STEVIE. Should that reflect poorly upon our PG? NO, it should reflect the excellence of Allen Iverson. The guy has the most feathery mid range game in the league. No one penetrates and more importantly, finishes better than Iverson in the league. And I do mean NO ONE!!! The guy is a marvel to watch and I wish more basketball fans would appreciate his game, but his career will ultimately be very short lived. Simply because of the amount of heart and wreckless abandon for which he plays the game in that small package of his. In closing, I'm not saying Francis doesn't have the potential to be every bit as good and possibly even better than Iverson, because he has the ability to. It just goes to show Iverson is that GOOD! ------------------
Mobley does not attack Double Teams Mobley does not attack double teams from the ISO sets. Francis attacks double teams from ISO far more than Mobley does. That is why we keep seeing Francis slipping on the floor all the time; he is dribbling into dangerous situations. What people think is a double team is Mobley getting around his single coverage and attacking the crease left in the remainder of the defense. That is not attacking a double team. Double Team vs "Helllllllp" Defense A double team is more accurately defined by a defender leaving his man to cover the ball-handler before the ball handler makes his move; you could even say, in order to prevent his move. If another defender comes to help after Mobley makes his move, I call that "help defense", and I think everyone would agree with those definitions. Mobley blows by his man, and you see help defense collapse on him, often way too late to stop anything. Still, Mobley Can Improve on Beating Helllllp Defense In fairness to everyone who says Mobley tries to split double teams when he is really just streaking through helllllp defense, is that he too often doesn't see the dish off when help defense comes. That I can agree with. He often has a dish off, and he goes for the foul call instead. And in fairness to Mobley, when you are moving as fast as Mobley is, there is a very fine line between help defense arriving in time vs being late. you are a little spoiled if you expect him to make the right decision on dish vs lay-up when he is moving so fast with 2-3 guys converging on him. Can't we be happy that he is even at the rim in those situations. Once he learns to see the dish at a higher clip, we have an great All-Star on our hands. Only repeating drives to the rim that Rudy is allowing will advance him to seeing the dish. Damn b****ing. These last two years are the perfect time for him to be getting the reps. Here's a Compromise for Mobley Bashers I ask the Mobley bashers; if you are going to be patient with Francis attacking double teams and slipping to the floor trying to do too much, at least allow Mobley to fail to see the dish while blazing through help defense. Don't call it foolishly attacking a double team. That is hypocritical, and also innaccurate, imo, for the reason I gave above. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 09, 2001).]
If Cuttino is hurting our offense so much, how come we are winning? I mean why complain when Cuttino is our top scorer and is shooting virtually the SAME percentage as our franchise PG that everybody is praising!? He can be so much better? He is was a 2ND ROUND PICK! What we're getting from Cat is a freaking MIRACLE! Most 2nd round picks are sitting on the edge of the bench or out of the league. ------------------ Dream a deadly Dream. . .
Yes, he can be so much better. Yes he is a great one on one scorer. YES, in last night's game, Philly started doubling the ball. Call it whatever you want to HeyPee, Cat tried to dribble between two defenders and lost the ball. He was behind the arc. No, I don't like it any more when Steve tries to dribble around or through a double team. Dumb and dumber? Both guys have incredible physical skills. That is what makes it frustrating. I use to scream at Hakeem, also, before he learned to pass out to the open man when he was doubled or tripled in the paint and would lose the ball or get off a bad shot. You know, basketball is not rocket science. Okay, in this case it is. By the way, HeyPee, do I have any other choice but to be patient? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Moe (edited February 09, 2001).]
DaMan, You DaMan. Excellent post. Let me say in closing of this argument that...well, Mobley needs to shoot less bad quality shots and less shots overall and make an attempt to dish the rock more. Freak, you may now chime in again. ------------------ Sleepless in the Bronx
