Carve up the middle East !!!

Sorry for all the posts in a row, but I was sleeping after spending 14 hours on the bbs yesterday adn missed a lot of the last posts.

 

Is anything fact on this page, of course this my ****ing opinion. But I cannot see how any man that have been given an education can tell me that democracy is not going toward what is right.

So how do you think we succeeded in making a government as large as today and have influenced almost every country in the world. Because who implemented Hitler-like might? or Stalin? So your saying that the second we take an action, we become no better then Hitler because we are using our might to prove our right. So if some ****ed up country decides to harbor some terrorist and fund them so they can throw a couple jets at you, you are not allowed to act because your might over them instantly becomes tyranny?

Please stop that crap Jag, you are no longer argueing for your own opinion and beliefs, but the sake of starting an arguement. I'm not an extremist who thinks Middle East should be invaded and carved up, but sooner or later, change will have to be made there.

 

This has got to be the most frustrating thread I've ever read. And after nearly 24 straight hours of this crisis, I mean that - ever. I couldn't even make it through without responding - that's a first for me.

First off, both the historical inaccuracies and the distortions of current events are mindboggling. Haven't any of you guys ever picked up a friggen history book??? Do any of you actually read the news articles you access??? Just a hint right off the bat, tho I'm on your side in this DaDa, but neither Germany nor Australia possess nukes (Germany is actually so scared of them that they're in the process of shutting down their reactors, and have the utilities panicking); everyone should know who possesses nukes and who doesn't..........

But mainly, I'm disgusted by some of the posters here who are trying to effectively blame the US for this terrible attack - shanna, Dream34, FD Khan, and a few others. You people just don't get it.

WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED!!!

This isn't about the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. It's not about race. It's not about religion. It's not about national origin or immigration. It's about a bunch of assholes who flew 3 planes into 3 buildings and murdered thousands of people. How you can justify that, I simply cannot understand, and it's not for lack of study of the ME problem (which I've been studying for over 5 years).

DaDakota, aside from some historical and current event errors, is exactly right. The people who perpetrated and sponsored this attack deserve to die. We are at war, and if Afghanistan and other states end up as parking lots, then fu*k 'em - they started it.

If those posters who continue to spout the "we brought it on ourselves by supporting Israel and acting like a hegemon" bulls*it keep doing it, then I might have to make an ignore list. You guys make me sick.

 

Warning:
My thoughst are not PC:

Anyone right now who will support who ever is responsible (presumably Laden) for this tragedy better learn to keep their mouths shut for awhile. Afganistan is in a world of trouble right now. If they don't either publicly present SATAN to us, or to publicly push him out of their country they will face serious repercussions.
Also I know Pakistan and India have Nukes and noone knows for sure how they will react, but they are best off standing in line with the US and watch the US (or NATA or the US Allies) destroy a city, area or even a country.
Same goes for Iraq, Iran and any other Mid-East country who may support terrorism (or just blatantly hate the US of A in any way).
We are the world Bully and we are in a very bad mood. Someone (or more than likely something or somewhere) is in for a butt-kicking of their lives.
I know it probably isn't right and you don't necessarily need to take an eye for an eye, but I firmly believe someone will be punished in a way that will be thorough and complete.

But always remember if you mess with a Bull be prepared to take the Horns.

 

You distort everything that's been said. Nobody's saying the US is accountable, responsible, or at fault. We're saying that there are ways to help prevent future monstrosities from happening. And it's not all about retribution.

IMO, what happened is like a store owners shooting a child for stealing a CD player (Israel) and then shooting his parents for supporting their child (the US).

 

same thing i was thinking

 

Posted By Treeman::

"This has got to be the most frustrating thread I've ever read. And after nearly 24 straight hours of this crisis, I mean that - ever. I couldn't even make it through without responding - that's a first for me.

First off, both the historical inaccuracies and the distortions of current events are mindboggling. Haven't any of you guys ever picked up a friggen history book??? Do any of you actually read the news articles you access??? Just a hint right off the bat, tho I'm on your side in this DaDa, but neither Germany nor Australia possess nukes (Germany is actually so scared of them that they're in the process of shutting down their reactors, and have the utilities panicking); everyone should know who possesses nukes and who doesn't..........

But mainly, I'm disgusted by some of the posters here who are trying to effectively blame the US for this terrible attack - shanna, Dream34, FD Khan, and a few others. You people just don't get it.

WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED!!!

This isn't about the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. It's not about race. It's not about religion. It's not about national origin or immigration. It's about a bunch of assholes who flew 3 planes into 3 buildings and murdered thousands of people. How you can justify that, I simply cannot understand, and it's not for lack of study of the ME problem (which I've been studying for over 5 years).

DaDakota, aside from some historical and current event errors, is exactly right. The people who perpetrated and sponsored this attack deserve to die. We are at war, and if Afghanistan and other states end up as parking lots, then fu*k 'em - they started it.

If those posters who continue to spout the "we brought it on ourselves by supporting Israel and acting like a hegemon" bulls*it keep doing it, then I might have to make an ignore list. You guys make me sick."


Now Treeman I love this country with all my heart and I have friends that worked in that building and I don't know if they are even alive. I gave blood yesterday and volunteered my services if needed.

But I am not going to be ignorant to the reasoning behind a set of actions. Imagine for a second what kind of hate, blind-insane-furious hate must be in someone's mind for them to kill themselves along with innocent victims simply to prove a point.

Those who did this should be hunted down and made a severe example of (add in a little torture would be nice) and any countries harboring and/or supporting these animals should be punished as well.

But the point i'm trying to make is WHY? You can kill the terrorists and bomb a country but John F. Kennedy once stated
" You can never be safe if your enemy is willing to give his life to take yours" (something like that)
In addition to lashing out at the branches that did this act, lets get to the roots of what grew this hatred.

Now If you want to go ahead and Ignore me be my guest....but I feel my comments are more Pro-America than anyone on this board, because I want to ensure future events like this do not happen. Using your mind to eliminate a problem instead of simply lashing out at the effects of a problem is simply an INTELLIGENT was of doing things, instead of acting in a manner that will perpetuate and exponentiate the terror we have seen yesterday in America...

 

1) The U.S. maintained that they would leave as soon as the UN stipiulations had been achieved. They were. There was no, repeat NO pre-condition that Sadaam would be removed from power...the only condition was the removal of Iraqi troops from Kuwait...

2) Bin Laden, in advance of this happening, said that the U.S. would cite exactly the kind of reasons you are now citing for staying...It is interesting to note that all other UN Gulf War nations vacated their troops under the conditions initially agreed to...

3) Bin Laden was NOT trying to bring down the Saudi government, and was in fact regarded as a local hero, until the issue of U.S. troops was raised...Interestingly, he wasn't afraid that other nations would stay following the Gulf War, only the States...and interestingly, the States are the only ones who have stayed...

4) Even the American intelligence reports do NOT state that Bin Laden had become involved in terrorism prior to the US troops in Saudi Arabia issue...His contacts with many of those who have become cells had been made, but those date back to the war against the Soviet Union...

 

1) In BOTH cases ( US and Germany) THEY declared war on the US, NOT the other way around...I have not stated that we shouldn't attack nations with whom we are at war, I am talking about invading lesser countries with whom we have issue, or because we suspect that some of their citizens are terrorists.

2) In terms of our, er, superiority to WW2 Germany, be carefull to make such blanket statements before you know the facts...First of all, over 75% of German war casualties occured on the Eastern Front. The Allied Supreme Command are on record as stating that had the Soviet Union not gotten involved in the War, it is " Highly unlikely" that the U.S. and Great Britain could even have maintained a viable Western Front, let alone win the war...Read Struggle For Europe, by Delmot,or others...It quotes from AHC minutes, Eisenhower, Roosevelt, Marshall etc. journals...
Germany was beaten by a unity of Great Britain ( who were in it for over 2 years alone, by the way, until Germany declared war on the U.S.S.R. and the U.S. respectively. Even against these powerfull allies, Germany ( while fighting a war on 2 ground fronts, a strategic nightmare) still almost won the war at various points. Had that same Germany ( who invented the concept of Blitzkrieg, upon which war has been based since ) allied with the Soviet Union and Great Britain against the U.S. in 1940, we would have likely faced the same fate as Germany...

3) You are only in competition with somebody IF you compete. To excuse propping up dictatorships ( many of whom used terrorist tactics before and after assuming power ) because "the other guy" was doing the same thing is hardly sufficient excuse, unless we feel that there should be no difference between the way we do things and the way the Soviets did...Didn't we consider the Soviet Union a " threat to freedom everywhere " because of their willingness to overlook the freedom of it's people and other, lesser nations in pursuit of their own interests? How can we calim moral superiority, than, if we justify doing similar things because they did it too? Besides, our record in Central and South America is a whole lot worse than theirs...

 

Uh...er...my point exactly....Read back, if you want one of us to wake up...My comments about U.S. foreign policy were in response to comments that suggested that we were the White Hats, and the Middle East were the Black hats. I was commenting on the proposed conquest and re-division of the Middle East justified by the fact that certain factions within the Middle East were terrorosts, while their criticism of us were dismissed as "lies", " Ravings" etc., or equated to stealing a CD. In fact, one post suggested that we were under attack merely because we tried to mediate and bring stability...THAT is the kind of over-simplification and BLACK AND WHITE naivety to which I was responding....

In the future, before advising others to wake up, maybe set your own alarm and read what you are commenting on...

 

Do we have any problems w/ Iran or Libya right now DaDakota? Perhaps you should give your plan of Muslim domination another once over before you and treeman go on that trip.

While your there, get me a barrell of oil... I'm at a 1/4 of a tank right now.

 

Oh, I forgot that the Saudis told us to leave and we stayed anyway. I forgot that we've been there for ten years even though the government that runs S Arabia is doing everything it can to get us out.

From CNN: Opposition views cause him to flee Saudi Arabia.
He opposed the Saudi decision to allow the U.S. military into the country after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and fled Saudi Arabia in 1991 after he was confined to the port city of Jeddah for his opposition to the Saudi-U.S. alliance.

Right, because the chance of the British or other non-Muslim countries staying, with their relatively small forces, was small. Mainly because by themselves, without US forces, they would not be a deterrent to Saddam coming back out of his bunker.

CNN: His rage stems from the decision by Saudi Arabia to allow the United States to use the country as a staging area for attacks on Iraqi forces in Kuwait and Iraq.

It was having US forces in Saudi AT ALL that pissed him off. Not some fine line about them staying on.

 

That was his original argument...an argument he backed up with public outcry....and nothing else. He expressed his " rage", yes...but his terrorost activities didn't begin until his predictions about the US troops were realized...In fact, it was the accuracy of his assessment of the situation in advance that has given him a lot of his esteem and reputation in the region....I guess you could say that, to the Anti-American contingents within the Middle East, his predictions and accuracy might be compared to Churchill's voice in the wilderness warnings about Germany before WW2...

 

<B>I don't say take down governments that we don't agree with, just the ones that are openly harboring terrorists, thus promoting it. </B>

Actually, you are saving to take down governments we don't agree with. From your first post:

<B>I would take out Libya, I would take out Iraq, Iran, and all the other little pissant countries that are against democracy. </B>

Any country that disagrees with democracy, apparently, you want to invade. Better yet, you want to install a Pro-US government in a country that has serious anti-US sentiment. Just take a look at the former Yugoslavia to see how well it works when a government does not accurately represent the will and sentiment of its people. But of course, you claimed ...

<B>Not to mention, I have been to most of those countries I am talking about, and recently.

NOT ONE of the average people hated America...NOT A SINGLE ONE !!!! </B>

You've been to Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya recently? If you have, then:

<B>As I said in another thread, as I read more and more people celebrating, like in Egypt etc, it makes me more sad, as I want the people repsonsible to be hunted down like dogs, ...</B>

Above, you said that none of these people hated America. Now you see them celebrating. Which is it? That is in <B>Egypt</B>, notably far more more moderate than these places you claim to have visited.

<B>The problem is that the people of these countries HATE us why? Because they are filled with lies about the evil Americans by their own government. </B>

Wait a minute... You told me you had been to these countries very recently and none of their average people hated us. Now they do? What the hell?

<B>Afghan's have VERY short memories, they would be under Russian control if we did not support them just 10 years ago....pathetic.... </B>

So now most Afghani's hate us too, eh?

<B>Anyone who has thought Dadakota's idea was dumb, one of the President's staff just said that they plan to make not only the terrorist groups pay, but also the countries that harbor them. I heard this on NBC news.</B>

Safe, there's a huge difference between attacking Afghanistan (retaliation), and installing a puppet US government there (imperialism, basically). You can be sure the latter will not happen, because our leaders are smart enough to act from logic, not anger.

<B>But mainly, I'm disgusted by some of the posters here who are trying to effectively blame the US for this terrible attack - shanna, Dream34, FD Khan, and a few others. You people just don't get it. </B>

treeman, if you'd like to participate and name individuals in this thread, please read their f@#$ing posts first so you might have some clue as to what you're talking about. To recap, all I've said is that you can't go in and install a puppet government in another country and expect it to succeed. How you got any relation to cause or blame for this, well, only you can figure that out.

 

I am not advocating invading the whole Middle East. I am advocating striking at any avowed terrorist, or any country that harbors them. And in case you haven't noticed, Bin Laden HAS DECLARED WAR ON US.

First of all, you should read up on the war on the Eastern Front. Most WWII scholars will admit that it is doubtful the Soviets would have held out without the tons of munitions and supplies they were getting through Allied (read American) convoys going to Soviet ports. Second, Germany took more casualties on the Eastern front because at first they were ATTACKING, which always involves more casualties. And once the tide started to turn (Stalingrad) they had large numbers of troops trapped by Hitler's stupid orders not to retreat. The Sixth Army encircled at Stalingrad was over 100,000 men alone. Keep in mind that Eisenhower decided not to close the gap with Pattons Third Army in The Battle for France because he was overly cautious, as was his nature. That has nothing to do with our strength being less than the Soviets.

And the Germans didn't invent 'lightning warfare,' BTW. The concept dates back thousands of years to calvary warfare. Swift 'lightning strikes' at the oppositions flanks, rear supplies, and communications was the core of calvary warfare. Tanks and dive bombers merely replaced horses.

Also, you seem to forget that the US was fighting a second front from '41 on through '45. And that they were taking on an equally dangerous opponent almost exclusively by themselves. The Soviets had the US and UK sucking resources off the Eastern Front in '42 (Africa) and then in '43 (Italy). So don't act like the Soviets weren't getting help.

Had the Soviets allied themselves with Germany. Well, they did, and they managed to whip Poland's ass. Absent INVADING the Soviet Union, there would not have been much the Soviets could have done to the US. Their Air Force and Navy blew. UK dominated the seas and the US the skies. Not a bad combination. And air superiority (in which the US excelled over Germany), is the concept that has been used since WWII (see the Gulf War).

Combine that with the herculean task Germany would have faced crossing the Atlantic (the couldn't even invade the UK for cying out loud), and I seriously doubt you'd have any different result, although it may have taken longer.

Well, in the real world there is no black and white, and sometimes you take the lesser of two evils. In many cases that meant a dictator instead of a communist regime run by Moscow. Sometimes that was the only difference. It would be easier to push through democratic reforms with a dictator that with a Moscow run government (which also committed the same atrocities as some of the dictators the US propped up). For example, although Pinochet was a b*stard, eventually we brought enough pressure to get the National Accords pushed through, and he was removed from power.

And our record in Central and South America is really not worse than the Soviets record in Eastern Europe (uh, the wall? Hungary '56, Czech '68), or Africa (Ethiopia with Menguistu), or other places.

 

I'll try this one last ime....Dakota, among other differences we have, one of the main is that you and I disagree about whether or not we are at war with these various nations, or can possibly justify declaring war on them based on the terrorist actions of individuals with no evidence that these nations had anything to do with them.I have previously stated WHY I don't feel we have this justification, so I'll not bother to repeat them. My main point is, however, that you seem to feel that might is right, and I contend that the United States was established in direct opposition of that precept.

 

Well, I don't remember writing 'Hey JAG, wake up.' I don't think I've made a statement that could be called 'oversimplification.' My point from the beginning has been that many are oversimplifying by pointing to one or two US actions as CAUSING the Middle East crises (plural). I'm awake and ready when you are. None of the comments above (CD, peace train) were written by me, so don't attach them to me, please.

 

You are making this stuff up. His anger at US troops was NOT that they would not leave after the war, it was that it was sacrilege for them to BE ON SAUDI SOIL because it was Muslim holy land. Sure it got WORSE when we didn't leave, but that was later.

And he was basically put under house arrest because of his criticism of the US troops in SA during that conflict, when he eventually fled to Afghanistan.