I agree we are lucky to be born in the USA, and we have no real context for what the beliefs are for these other nations. The only way to overcome that is through dialogue with the people, let them see that our concerns as a family and people are EXACTLY the same as theirs, and all that we desire is peace. Now, I am sure you agree with this, right? My point is that the people of these countries are not able to participate in a dialogue about our differences and similarities, and thus are being fed lie upon lie about us Americans. Now, do I believe that we are a PERFECT government or society? Absolutely not, but we are in better shape then they are, for a reason, that reason? Freedom. When all nations are free and can participate in a dialogue like the one described above, we will have peace, until that time, we will have to strugle for it, just as our granparents did. My grandfather stormed Omaha beach, and I thank his memory each and every day. I believe that we need to take out ANY government that is harbouring terrorist, don't give those cockroaches anywhere to muster and plan their attacks, let them live in the terror they are trying to create themselves. DaDakota PS. I would bet my ..... as you say that I could hammer you at Racquetball
Thanos: what's that old saying? You can only please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all of the time. I won't deny that America has some arrogance about itself, but it's like Haven said there have been plenty of times that the US has helped out other countries big time. So, I don't think that you really want to go there. I can't say for a fact but I'm sure that the US has helped Brazil out probably every time they have needed assistance from other countries. If anything we probably got on their nerves with our "helpfulness". You are right about the dictatorships, but don't you think that had to do with corrupt politicians in the US. I may be wrong about that completely, but it is just human nature that some people when given great power abuses it (another old saying, "absolute power corrupts absolutely"). There have been political scandals in the US in the past like with US Grant, Teapot Dome, Watergate, etc. The US isn't any different from other countries in that respect. It's just that the US is a little more high-profile than other nations, so any time there's a political scandal in this country, it makes major news over the world.
Thanks Achebe. That's very much my point of view. We are blinded by the surroundings we live in. To truly go beyond the common sense, one must be able to put himself in the other's shoes. Never judge a society by the views of the society you live in. Common sense is mediocrity. And "OUR" country, can do wrongs too. Humankind will only know peace when we can put all this damn borders to rest. Nationality is a plague, I tell you. That's the beauty of the board. You guys are a world away from me, our opinions differ on a lot of subjects, and yet, even though I'm brazilian and you are american and we hate each other's guts (just kidding) we can still argue about the subject we all have in common: our undying love for the rocks. And yet, we have more things in common. Things of far greater relevance, like our very own humanity. The authors of this tragedy have lost theirs. Steps should be taken to make sure that this will not continue. And attacking only the symptons will not do. Period.
Dadakota, completely off topic, regarding your signature: Conquest Frontier Wars is out !! Pick up your copy today. http://www.ubisoft.com/conquestfrontierwars/ I downloaded mine for free from the net. Brazilian 3rd worlder ripping off the work of the big bad companies (who happen to charge WAY more than they should for a game) It's good, but Starcraft's still tops in my book.
fro... I agree about the wrestling, but I would maintain that dakota has not watched enough history channel... Dakota, you stated that we buried our heads in the sand twice before, and that was what caused two World Wars..I can't disagree with you more... 1) WWI was, in no way, the result of superpowers ignoring the on-goings in smaller nations...In fact, it was indirectly caused by the rise of the military and industrial might of Germany which upset the (so-called) balance of power set up by the Congress of Vienna following the Napoleonic Wars. The superpowers fealt threatened by this new power, as their self-interests were linked to the status quo... The more direct cause for WW1 was, in fact, the exact opposite of what you suggest...A terrorist act ( the assasination of the ArchDuke Ferdinand by a political terrorist) roused the previously mentioned superpowers, who ( by virtue of various treaties) took sides in this fairly local dispute to such a point that the WW1 was the result....The American involvment was the result of German submarine attacks on U.S. shipping, and not due to facing up with some regratable but morally justified inevitability...In fact, finding the "right side" to agree with in WW1 is a dubious venture at best... 2) While I agree that appeasement of Hitler greatly affected WW2, it is a gross over-simplification to state that that was the cause...In fact, the actual causes of WW2 are rooted in the Treaty of Versailles, wherein the victors of WW1 "carved up" Germany, as you suggest we do with the Middle East, and exacted reparations so severe that Germany was in economic chaos...the Nazis were merely the most succesful exploiters of this situation. Both World Wars can be directly linked to so-called superpowers believing that their military power allowed them to dictate the fates of lesser powers. Ironically, the United States was ( especially Wilson ) the voice of reason at the time. He stated the (apparently semi-extinct) American philosophy that might does not make right, and that superpowers become tyrants when they use that power to enforce their own ideologies on other nations. It is interesting to note that American attitude has altered in this regards as it has risen in world power.... Also, with regards to your comment that we are, in effect, at war with those nations who " openly " harbour terrorists, the questions that have to be asked are... 1) How do you define a terrorist? What is the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter, whether or not they agree with our ideologies? Do you know that, for the last 5 years, Iran has been condeming the U.S. for "openly harbouring" a terrorist group ( I can't remember their name ) which has claimed responsibilty for several bombings and murders in Iran...Of course, we are opposed to Iran, so we call these folks patriots...You do know that we not only " openly harboured " anti-Castro terrorists, we funded and trained them... 2) If we believe in "guilty until proven innocent" , how do we justify attacking nations who maintain that no terrorist action has been approved or even tolerated within their nation...Afghanistan maintains that Bin Laden (!?!?) has done nothing...What evidence do we have that they are lying? What more do we have to go on than the words of our own intelligence agencies ( who have been known to be wrong, once or twice) that any of this is even accurate? And, beyond trying this man without any evidence, you want to invade an entire region and re-write the map!?!?!?
........sigh.... Citing "family responsibilities" John Wayne applied for and received draft exemption...He fought in wars, but only on the big screen...
The " huge difference " as you call it, is merely an extension of your own standard...The British didn't " enslave" Americans, but the Revolution is still, I believe, thought to have been a response to tyranny...
Interesting philosophy..base international relations on prison-yard practices...I can't see any potential debacles resulting from this philosophy...oh, except we'd be back in the Middle Ages, only with nuclear weapons at our disposal....
While I personally think that the Marshall Plan was America's greatest achievement, you shouldn't naively suppose it was motivated exclusively by the welfare of mankind...It was, ( read Marshall's own journal) initiated as a direct solution to the presence of America's idealogical opponent, the U.S.S.R., and the belief that a war-raveged Western Europe would turn to Communism as a political solution to their plight...
Jag, Your post is well thought out but you missed my point. I am not saying that the reasons behind WW1 and 2, were because of our isolationist stance, I am saying that they escalated from a primarily regional conflict to one in which we had to intervene because of it. If we had become involved earlier, perhaps Hitler or the Kaiser would not have gotten as far as they did before we intervened. In addition I have already stated that the reason for Hitler's rise to power was the HORRID economic sanctions put in place on Germany for their participation in WW1. In fact we learned from this during WW2, and that is why we had the Marshall plan in place to REBUILD these nations right away, and to let the people know at a grass roots level that America is not the enemy. Guess what? It worked. As for my definition of a terrorist, anyone who kills innocent people for ANY reason is a terrorist Period, and I would advocate extradition of those people FROM any country including the USA. I also think it is our responsibility to get to the bottom of this and find out WHO is responsible and hunt them down, that includes the governments who give these LUNATICS sanctuary. My reaction to carving up the middle east is about the governments that are KNOWN to sponser terrorists...Iran, Iraq, Afganastan, Libya etc. If any of them are involved, I advocate doing ANYTHING within our means to take that government out of power. DaDakota
Thanos, As to regards to you admitting to STEALING my work. As big companies charge too much for it. You have lost any respect I might have had for you, you are no more then a common thief. That BIG company you are referring to is mine, our small staff of around 20 people or so have been working on that game for over 4 years, and to have THEIVES like you stealing our hard earned work is deplorable. Fortunatly we have plans for those Warezed copies, don't be expecting to be playing the game after we patch it in October. I am disgusted at your attempt to trivialize your crimes. YOU SIR, ARE A COMMON CROOK !! DaDakota
You are wrong. We are democratic and would not result to tyranny. If your enslaved by your captor, you should revolt. If you are ruled by a tyrant, you should revolt. Neither is the case today. And if you feel the difference between enslavement and being given a chance of freedom (which is what democratic nations do) is only huge in my own standard, then I sympathize for your shallowness.
Dakota, what should we do to the people who originally trained Bin Laudin to be a terrorist? See: http://msnbc.com/news/627355.asp#19 I guess the fact that the CIA and the US trained him and it was Ok when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan would be too complex for your simply minded version of American power and morality.
(sigh) Glynch, There someone goes again calling someone names to reinforce their weak pathetic arguments. I do agree that the US government is not blameless, we also set up Saddam, and have helped many other oppressive governments to suit are needs. However, as you can see Bin Laden is no longer on our side, and has openly taken credit for the killing of thousands of lives. We have to act now. As I said in another thread, as I read more and more people celebrating, like in Egypt etc, it makes me more sad, as I want the people repsonsible to be hunted down like dogs, and I want governments that harbor terrorists to be overthrown, but I DO NOT WANT WW3, and this could very well escalate to that degree. And in war, there are no winners, only Losers (of life) DaDakota
I¡¦m sorry I cannot agree with you because these are very different times. Briton had ¡§might¡¨ but in a different form, they were tyrants. They were oppressive rulers who cared little for the welfare of their people in the colonial towns. The people in America were being controlled, had no freedom, and were being tax insanely. If America does take over the Middle East, would we go back and do what they did to us, I think not. Yes, America today, might present different problems, but we have definitely progressed. We have developed a government where other countries now use us as a model. Russia and Japan turned out pretty good after we help them rebuild, what makes you think it cannot happen with the countries in Middle East. Yes, might does not, and should not always transform to right. But would you not agree that the one going closest toward what is right should have the might to lead? Just because, at the moment, we have the might does that mean we can¡¦t be right too?
Dakota, surprisingly we are getting close to an agreement. I am in favor of aresting and going in with the minimal force necessary to arrest Bin Laudin or whoever did this. Once you accept US unclean hands in many of these affairs and start talking about the need to avoid a major war over this we're getting close. What happened to the go in and blow the piss ant bastards away etc., then occupy their countries and make them do right, ravings which caused people to respond so strongly to the thread?
Maybe... but just for the record, I was kidding about me being fat. Plus, if we played the game @ my court (~5200 - 5500' asl) I'd hold my own.
Glynch, I still would LOVE to overthrow any government that is harboring terrorists. The problem is that the people of these countries HATE us why? Because they are filled with lies about the evil Americans by their own government. Why would a government do this? Because it is easier to blame someone else for your countries woes then to look at the lousy job their own government it doing. I can't believe they were dancing and throwing CANDY to kids in the West Bank celebrating this attack, what a CLASSLESS thing to do. I do not KNOW OF ONE american that feels any comfort in the innocent people that are losing their lives in the Terrorist acts, or the retaliation for those acts. It is disgusting to me, and I think the American military/government HAS to act and act swiftly and strongly. However, I do believe smartly. Afghan's have VERY short memories, they would be under Russian control if we did not support them just 10 years ago....pathetic.... DaDakota
