There is a HUGE difference. When the Dutch, French, ENglish..etc took over Africa, they enslaved the people there.
Bear with me as i thought i should bring my post over here too... I usually don't post in the hangout, but this topic just screams for my attention. As some of you may or may not now, I'm brazilian, and I happen to have a history degree, btw. Though I'm not american, I'm obviously touched as everyone should be. I'm glad to witness that most people around here haven't lost their minds out of anger, and that has made my respect for this bbs grow even further. It must be said that it's understandable to "hate back" when you see people partying over such a tragedy. However, as it has been pointed out in several posts, the US goverment actions over the 20th century are the ones to be blamed for such hatred. The USA's siding with Israel in the middle east issues, largely due to the lobbying power that jewish-american capitalists have over congress and the government is flat out unnaceptable and should have been reviewed before it allowed things to become as they sadly are. The state of Israel was created in the 20th century artificially and left the palestinian people as a people without a territory to live in. That's something that was done with the blessings of the western powers, and something the United States, for all their supposedely hard efforts to bring peace to the middle east, have never adressed, always having sided with Israel on the issue. Just split the damn land and stop this madness, for chrissakes! This should have been put to rest decades ago. We don't know for sure wheter Bin Laden is responsible for this or not, but the truth is, the hatred exists, and such hatred has been manipulated over and over again by leaders with their own agendas like saddam hussein. It's easier to be a tyrant when you have a scapegoat to point all the misery of your people too. We all must realise that the world is a hellish place. When you have companies and individiduals with far more money than they could ever spend in their lifetimes while people are starving to death in Africa, and the globalization is only a means of making such unequality grow deeper, sooner or later thing were bound to come to the point they reached today. I could go on and on, but i'll save some for later. To the point of the topic, someone will obviously pay for this, with confirmation or not. The american public wouldn't ever accept such a tragedy going without a retaliation. If the guilty party is not found, someone will be the scapegoat, and my bet is on Iraq. It's a shame that the iraqui people may have to pay for a crime they didn't commit. Now, something good may come off this. Some concepts will have to be revised. There's no excuse for mass murder, but the truth is, the powers that be have been blind over the past decades to the cries of hunger and despair of the 3rd world. Things have to change, or this kind of blind hatred fanaticism may become the flavor of the day. DaDakota, I may even agree with that assessment of yours, striking countries that harbor terrourists. However, that's akin to attacking only the simptons and not the disease. Unless something is done about the disease itself, the treatment you are suggesting is NOT going to stop the madness.
Oh, And to have a WORLD WAR, you have to have powers that are similarly equal on opposing sides. Fortunatly that is NOT the case now. I am sure that all of the other countries of similar might recognize our right as a nation to strike back at those who commented this heinous act. And yes, that does include governments that are HARBORING AND AIDING terrorists. I respect the right to have a different opinion, but please understand that you can not reason with the unreasonable. How many people here would find it reasonable to crash a jetliner full of passengers into a building to make a point? No one? Exactly my point. You must kill the roots, and the tree will die. DaDakota
Ed Koch said to give the governments that are harboring these savages that they have 5 days to turn over Bin Laden or to evacuate theri cities.
That may work in a garden, but not in real life my friend. See my previous post and share your thoughts with me on the issue. Try and go beyond your rightful anger over what has transpired.
If someone hits you in the face, either you hit them back or you're their prison-style b**** for the rest of your adult life. End of story.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by F.D. Khan Actually Bingo a lot more than 100,000 of THEM are dead.....from the bombings in IRAQ over the course of many months during the war.... A few buildings explode in the US and this is how we feel....horrible.....distrustful....vengeful.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GR8-1 "I don't even know how to respond to this one. " He's completely right you tool. get educated GR8-1
Anyone who has thought Dadakota's idea was dumb, one of the President's staff just said that they plan to make not only the terrorist groups pay, but also the countries that harbor them. I heard this on NBC news.
Thanos, I do not agree with your views of Israel, but I understand your point of view. There is NO guarantee of a homeland for anyone, no race, religion or otherwise. The palestinian people are NOT guaranteed that, neither are the American Indians (of which I am 1/4). Everyone at some point in their ancestory has been conquered...EVERYONE !!! The cold hard fact is that the victors make and write the histories. You say I am angry, YOU BET I AM ANGRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I get angry every time a Palestinian bombs innocent people in a Pizzaria, or anytime the Isralis retaliate in the West Bank, it is madness. However, we can not bury our head in the sand, and NOT support our allies, we can not allow terrorism to work. I too hope we do not attack WHOLESALE across different landscapes, I would prefer a surgical strike against governments that harbor terrorists. Of one thing we can be sure, Israel did not launch this attack. Therefore, I think it is imperative that America strike back with a fury that makes ANYONE think twice about doing this again. I DO NOT CONDONE violence in any form, but sometimes it is the only thing people understand. Tear down their governments and build them back up, just like Germany, Japan, and Italy in WW2. You studies history, there is precedence here. DaDakota
**** off, you jackass. I didn't make light of the Palestine/Israeli situation. I coudln't stand the fact that Khan made light of this situation, even in jest. That "a few buildings comment" crossed the line and I could give a crap where his true feelings stand on this issue. Go **** yourself, you tool.
Remember Oklahoma City? Timothy McVeigh? The only difference between that and this is scale. And that's because of opportunity, not goodness. Think McVeigh ever thought "gee, I'd better blow up this building, and not the WTC because there are too many people there.'? I doubt it. In the short term, we need to catch who did this and punish them. If it was state-sponsored, military strikes are appropriate. But Afghanistan might be INCAPABLE of handing over bin Laden... if that's the case, are they to blame? Of course not. Israel was artificially, and in my opinion, wrongly created. These people are nuts, but if you take away their cause (pragmatically speaking) you eliminate an injustice against Palestine and make the US safer at once. Unfortunately, this attack may have made it HARDER for that to happen, since a change in position would now look "soft on terrorism."
Thanos: I don't know if Iraq will be the scapegoat if no one is found. I heard on the NBC News that Intelligence is 90% certain that it is the work of Bin Laden . Most damning is the fact that he made the statement 3 weeks ago that "an unprecedented attack" would occur on the US if support to Israel didn't stop. But, maybe Iraq had something to do with it because after all with all the attention that Bin Laden has been getting, it would be easy for someone else to do this and pass it off that Bin Laden did it. Personally, I believe that Bin Laden is behind it. Hell, he's the #1 fugitive on the FBI list for killing people at the US Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar Es Saalam (sp?), Tanzania. He has obviously had experience at attacking the US before but nothing this big. BTW - You have an interesting viewpoint on why this happened. However, after Pearl Harbor, it has been ingrained in every American that you can't just sit there and not do anything. If I can remember correctly, the US was staying out of the conflict that became World War II. It was only after the bombing of Pearl Harbor something that was rivaled by today's tragedies that the US decided to stand up not only for itself but for all nations that believe in democracy and wanting to be free. To abandon Israel would be exactly what these bastards want and not a good example for the rest of the free world. Whether some people in this country like it or not, our nation is looked upon by other nations as the protector of freedom and democracy. That's not being ethnocentric or jingoistic, that's just stating pretty much a well-known fact.
Man, you are condoning and expecting humankind to persist in it's INHUMAN mistakes of the past? Of course I know the precedence. And it sickens me to death! You are saying that no people have a right to a homeland? C'mon! That's the whole point! I'm glad you have brought the indians, as I was about to bring them into the subject anyway. You are justyfing then, that in a what-if scenario a power that was stronger than the US would have the right to take your homeland as it pleased? You are what, quoting DARWIN here? Survival of the fittest? The strongest has conquered the weakest? Obviously I know that to be truth, but you cannot allow a tragedy like this to justify such thinking, just because yours happens to be the most powerful country in the world! If we are going to think like that, we lose what makes us HUMAN. We are not animals, we must go beyond our instincts of survival. What do we have left if we do not? Full scale anarchy? I'm not against tearing down goverments that harbor terrorism. I'm just suggesting that we all should take a moment a take a look at the big picture here. Some of you may not like this, but much of the wealth of the US and Europe has been made off their exploration of the so-called third world countries. Things have to change. Share some of that wealth. I'm not talking about the average joe. I'm talking about big time companies and individuals who are rich beyond their wildest dreams while people are starving to their death!
This is cute that we're playing 'up the sensationalism' with someone whose entire living is based off little kids playing video games. Are any of those video games violent DaDakota? Are we getting preached to about honor and valor from a fellow fat **** computer programmer? Which John Wayne proved when he became a draft dodging *****. Exodus, movement of ja people. Could we forcably put the Jews on Palestinian lands? By a long shot. PS, I wasn't insinuating that a local government in the US was really privy to killing 1000s of Americans. I was trying to refocus DaDakota's power displacement. When a blackback gets picked on by a silverback, what does he do? He goes and lets out a little bit of frustration on a weaker power. The US was quick to show their power w/ the Iraqi people... but confusion would be abound if it turns out that it was a group of our own. Or something to play with... what if it was sanctioned by some other country... i.e. China? I don't think the hoity toity kids in this thread would be advocating invasion of China. We'd all be pissing in our pants b/c of the implications. I think innocent people died in some of our bombing raids in the middle east. I wonder if that played into the (I'm presuming it's Osama) mindset of the terrorists? Hmmm.... I think innocent people have died b/c of the sanctions against the Iraqi govt (read: people since poor people that are dying usually have a hard time fighting their oppressors). I wonder if that played into the mindset of the terrorists? Hmmm... By no means should the mental midgets of the board infer that I'm advocating what happened today. What happened today should be avenged. I just think that care should be taken to not infuriate that remaining 5% of the global population that doesn't want us all dead.
The problem is that you americans are sometimes way too full of it for your own good. This protector of freedom and democracy line is pure bull****. For instance, the US was behind military dictatorships in all of latin america because it served their intersts at the time. CIA agents played a big role in Allende's downfall in Chile. And let's not forbet that your democracy was built on the poor indian's corpses, who happened to be the rightful owners to the territory you call home now. Nationalism is a tool made by goverments to cloud the people's thinking. A goverment's interst is usually a reflection of the needs of the upper classes, and not the average guy on the streets. Haven is right. You give the palestinian people a land, which they deserve, and the hatred is gone. I'm probably going to get flamed for eternity for this, but, what the hell... And i have nothing against America and it's culture and people, just to make it clear. Just against it's goverment.
Thanos: has it really come that far? A German exchange student who's a friend of mine told me that most older Germans (above 55 or so) still feel appreciative of the US for the Marshall plan and the "America Houses" after WW2. That people from 30-50 or so often resent America because of hgemonic, insidious policies in Latin America and Southeast Asia. But he then said that most people of his generation (we're both college students) don't really have a good or bad opinion of America as a state. We're an ally. Germany and the US side together more often than not. But it's not some great "protector of freedom," either. Your post seems to indicate more hositility than that. Was my friend padding the truth for me?
Achebe, All of my computer games are not VIOLENT in a first person shooter type of game, they are at the most as violent as a board game of risk. Now, I understand what you are saying and I concur that we need to find the ONES that are behind this and punish them. I DO NOT want any innocents to die, in fact as a father it sickens me to see children fatherless, or motherless for some DUMB A$$ cause or another. All I am saying is that if you want to fight terrorism, and it is CLEAR that we have to, we have to strike at those that harbour those said terrorists. The Middle East has been fighting for CENTURIES, and if it were not for the fact that they are sitting on the largest Oil Deposits in the world would still be considered third world impoverished countries. I think your argument about spreading the wealth is admirable, and even makes some since, but what this discussion is about is getting back at the people who just attacked our country. Yes, the rest of the world considers us arrogant, and that we stick our noses in everyone's business. Again, I stress, that WE HAVE TO STICK OUR NOSES IN..... History has taught us that we can not just let things happen, if we are to be leaders, then we have to take charge, not follow. Now, I am happy that this country allows such conversations as we are having, you think in Iraq, they can talk this openly? My point exactly !!! DaDakota PS Do not let your lack of argument or class show by resorting to name calling.
I've always felt that we're lucky to have Thanos on the board. Thanos, if I'm unable to give you numbers in defense later tonight, rest assured it's merely b/c I'm playing raquetball... not that I don't agree with your post. Everyone is enculturated to believe in their particular culture. But of course! you say... but it really does take a lot of effort to truly convey this truism to others. People act as if by the glory of GOD they just happened to be born in the right family to be told about their capitalist beliefs. Lucky me!!!! I'm so lucky! If I were born in the Middle East I'd go to hell! Lucky me!!! If you were born in the Middle East, you'd be devout Muslim and decrying usuries. Since we're in the US, we love our Chic-Fil-A (mmmm...) and beer (mmmm hmmm mmmm). Lucky us. Thanks GOD for taking a gametic moment out to make sure my ass was born in the U S of A.
Haven: Depends. I can't comment on german views over America, but the truth is, for most of the 3rd world, be it latin america or africa, the United States are not seen with simpathy. When people are ignorant, those feelings can extend to the average american, going beyond the usual despise for the american goverment. In Brazil that usually doesn't happen, because, to a great extent, our society mirrors yours, with shopping centers and all. The brazilian middle classes' dream is to live like an american. But the hard facts are that the CIA was behing the military coup d'etat in Brazil in 1964. And the truth is that the american goverment zeals for the intersts of the major international corporations and financial institutions who happen to make Brazil their playground. Our situation here is nowhere near as desperate as in Africa, but thousands of people barely survive. Children die of hunger. There's a major unemployement crisis and meanwhile, we are too busy paying for what seems the 100th time our orignal and eternally growing national debt. You are either playing a key role on our misery, or you are shielding your eyes to the thousands of people who are suffering. One way or another, so far, you, as country have been part of the problem, and not the solution, unfortunately. Achebe was right about those 5%....
LOL! I thought I was taking a moment out to take a slight stab at what you pointed out immediately before this quote! Our incredible luck. All my best (I really have to go now).
