my strongly held belief that's coloring this is the following: people should treat each other with respect...holding the other person as more important than themselves. that's the strongly held belief i have that affects this discussion. i don't empathize with violence. and i've NEVER said it was a just reaction. i've said it was ridiculous and wrong.
I am not sure any one country is "culturally superior", but you will have insensitive people in any society. And if their country has freedom of press/speech, then those insensitive people has the right to be heard. Of course people also have the right to be offended, no excuse for the violent behavior though.
You may not feel any one country is "culturally superior", but some do. To cite another example: So there you have it - the selective freedom of speech for one culture and race, but not for the other.
Hum, so you use quotation marks to attribute to me words I never said. BTW, I don't have an obsession with Islam, but I am worried about Islamic terrorism and the weakness of Western resolve against it.
wnes: That's a terrible example. Koeppal basically said, "our culture has made free speech a goal. It's the rule, regardless of offensive potential." And that's totally rational. It's THEIR COUNTRY. END OF STORY. If you don't want to see offensive cartoons, you are in the wrong country! If one does not support that tenet, or the right of sovreign nations to to make that choice, perhaps R2K's suggestion of moving back to "islamic societies" is what these muslims need to do. That being said no one is preventing danish muslims from making cartoons of jesus or writing "letters to the editor".
Maybe the German Jews should have made exodus to Israel if it had existed during the Nazi era, no? After all, the Jews in that country constitute a minor population. If they didn't like being persecuted, they could have made home elsewhere, yeah?
Again - terrible example. No one is trying to kill muslims here. It's a cartoon. Heck, no one is preventing them from protesting peacefully! Seriously, get a grip - it's a free society. I can't stand a ton of stuff said by religious fundamentalists and social conservatives here in the US. I'm not rioting about it because it's their goddam right to say what they want. That being said I don't think I'd support hate speech or speech that incites violence, but I really don't think that's the case here. Even if it was, violence is a hypocritical and stupid way to protest it. And you can be damn sure that if things keep progressing the way they are here in the US I might not stay here. In a democracy, the majority does have unfair influence - it's not right, but it's human nature. It's not supposed to be that way but it is.
you just made an argument that's counter to our own Constitution...which protects the minority from majority rule. love it or leave it??? geez..that doesn't sound real progressive, does it?
What are we protecting the minority from here? Cartoons? No one has the right to not be offended ever!!!!!! Who's protecting me from Ann Coulter's continually offensive editiorials?
Bad example, I don't think Muslims are being gased in Germany. Plus what he said was that their country has freedom of speech, which means freedom of speech for everyone IN THAT COUNTRY. I don't see "selective freedom of speech". So if a Muslim newspaper in Germany wants to publish some cartoon on Jewish people, they can do it.
The tyranny of majority is not a true characteristic of healthy democracy. It could be a whole different matter if the editors in these Western European countries are "equal opportunity offenders" like you, and perhaps, thegary. Here's another example of the hypocrisy from the "culturally superior majority": To some people and religions, to be humiliated is probably worse than to be killed. It may sound crazy to you and me, but it is also part of the diverse human nature.
No they can't, there are special laws against anything perceived as anti-Semitic, so Jews have special protection in that regard. OTOH, I don't think Muslims in the West have an itch to mock Judaism and Christianity, we consider you guys "people of the book" (pretty much misguided "brothers in faith"), so I don't think I will be publishing a cartoon anytime soon showing Jesus in piss, that's as offensive and inciteful to me as showing Muhammed or Moses or any other messenger of God in a bad light. I think the point wnes was trying to get at was that in Europe, the rules aren't the same for everyone, some have prefered status while others don't; that was hilighted by the same Danish newspaper's refusal to publish offensive cartoons about Christ, and the Chruch's case that banned an offensive portrayal of "The Last Supper", and countless other examples exist. There's a clear double-standard here, if you can't see it, I can't help you there. Let's just put it this way: if African Americans or Jews were mocked in the same fashion Muslims are in the West, there would be hell to pay, no one would tolerate it and the offenders would be at least fired from their jobs, make no mistake about that. Now, however, you say something about Muslims like Imus on MSNBC or some local radio jocks in this country or publish cartoons of the prophet as a terrorist? No problem there, Muslims are a 'safe' minority, it's a great opportunity for closet racists and bigots to direct their deragotory comments at a minority that society hasn't developed a sensitivity for as of yet, and say things towards them that no one can ever say about Blacks and Jews, because if you do, you are aware of the consequences.
^^^^I agree. I certainly was not defending "cultural majority rule". And if it does not even out as it should in a liberal society - the democracy (as is inevitable) will fail. And then the only option may be to find a new country - or refresh the tree of liberty. EDIT: I think the distinction here is that the muslims in question are not protesting because of the unfair ratio of muslim cartoons to jesus cartoons. They seem to be angry that these nations are not as restrictive as an islamic society would be. That may not be a fair observation/assumption however, the news here is fairly anti-muslim.
Well, it's not that a difficult observation to make, shall I say, after reading so many posts from you guys. DaDakota is perhaps another one on the list, IMO.
I think the word "sensitive" is more appropriate. The "sensitivity" around Jews and African Americans is high in US, not necessarily due to true sensitivity, but rather being "politically correct". It is over-politicalized. If Jews and African Americans were offended, no political figure DAREs to say about majority and minority reality, and freedom of speech even with offensive contents. You also have Whites "feeling offended" for the Blacks, just like the theatre around the word "plantation". Why? Because there is political consequence. But on the other hand, if you offend Muslims or other minorities, some will support your freedom of speech, and protect your right to express your thoughts. People will come out and tell Muslims whether they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be offended. Why? Because there is no political demage, maybe even some gain.
You are right about anti-Semitic laws, I should have said Muslims in Germany should enjoy the same freedom of speech as other Germans. Any single newspaper can agree/refuse to publish a cartoon, that's what freedom of press is. People are more sensitive to their own religion, pretty sure Muslim papers will refuse to publish anything that's offensive to Islam, and that's their right.
Great post - I agree. I hope I'm not coming off as insensitive, but rather pro-freedom of speech and anti-censorship. EDIT: Well, and anti-religion too, not that that should surprise anyone anymore...
I am as pro-free speech as most people are, I am simply trying to help you realize that there is a double-standard at play here that other minorities are not subjected to...that's all.
