personally, i can see the arguments on both sides of this thing. but i can't defend the actions of either side. 1. yes, there's freedom of press. yes, it's a good thing. you don't have to intentionally insult people, though. it's not a requirement of the free press. you can be responsible, as well. 2. yes, i understand the notion that God calls you to something different or higher. i totally get that. i can't see Him saying, "yeah...it's a good thing that my followers are burning down those buildings, risking life and injury for others." as a Christ-follower, i particularly can't see that given the humiliation Christ suffered which he returned with calls for forgiveness.
i totally agree with you. but, do you think that it is way beyond any reasonable person to question the role of violence in muslim societies.
Supporting what? You mean violence? Do you realize that that mentality is extremely dangerous? What if Black people walked around thinking, "Oh yes, I am pretty sure deep inside all White people are racist pricks", or if Christians walked around thinking, "Oh yes, all Muslims are jihadis that want to kill us for now reason", or if Americans walked around thinking, "Oh yes, all Chinese people living in America are involved in espionage against America"...do you realize how extremely dangerous this type of sentiment would be in a multi-cultural society such as ours? That's how prejudice takes seed in our hearts, and slowly but surely it reflects in the way we treat people...
no not at all. but you can do it in a way that doesn't offend every Muslim on the planet..including those who think that this sort of violence is NOT what God calls them to. it isn't always the message but the packaging of the message that is most important.
max, i'm afraid it's a price we must pay. sometimes people get offended, often rightly so. how does one call attention to the problem?
Even suggesting that some "deep down" support this violence without any proof is very dangerous, that was my point, not the fact that he said "some" might, it's that he's saying "deep down" some are supporting this violence. I thought only God had knowledge of what's in our hearts, but I may be wrong.
no..you can debate without offending. you dont' have to draw cartoon figures of men whom these people deem holy carrying bombs or looking like idiots. in the mind of the muslim, you're ascribing those bad connotations to the "holy man" himself. if you're trying to communicate something...you've just lost. because the defense mechanisms come up immediately.
unfortunately, nuance doesn't play well. people sometimes need to be hit over the head with something to acknowledge it. those defense mechanisms that come up are the most important things to address in this whole brouhaha if you ask me.
I never said I was against it, man. I said I thought most of the accolades were due to the hype. Much was the same for LOTR: Return of the King. I loved that movie but feel like the sweep of the awards was due to hype and not solely due to the quality of the film in the various areas it received awards.
TM; Everyone's got their own agenda's and no offense, I think you and Adeel have a pretty strong agenda here to defend what you see as an affront to Islam. My POV is that I can understand why you and other Muslims are offended but frankly my opinion is closer to Gwayneco on this one and think that Muslims are way way overreacting on this and have crossed some serious lines by resorting to violence and burning embassies. My main argument though is that this isn't the US's fight and I don't believe the US getting involved either way will help the situation and more likely make things worse. What troubles me about some of the posters is that they are seeming to get very worked up over this. What I am wondering is what is this going to lead to? Is this just more ammo to drive us into an all out war with Islam? That's just playing into Bin Ladin's hands because he wants nothing more than a full on war so he can appear the defender of Islam rather than a bitter kook.
I agree with SC. I understand why muslims might be offended - but honestly the reaction is uncalled for (and is likely the product of political exploitation by people with different agendas)
Following my own rule six of D & D decorum I won't respond to your lack of maturity but state that if you've read my posts in this thread in general I agree with you that Muslims are way over reacting here and have crossed several lines of civilized behavior in terms. That said though what do you want the US to do? Do you want us to start sanctins against Lebanon, Jordan, Pakistan and Malaysia? Do you want us to send Marines to protect Danish Embassies? Do you want us to go to war with Islam? Seriously consider what actions you think we should be doing and what the consequences of it. Also seriously consider why are you so troubled by this and not say by violent protest by Chinese or South Koreans over Japanese textbooks or by the fact that many European governments already have stricter limitations on their press regarding subject matter and lible. The argument that this is defending the European's press' right to free speech is somewhat hypocritical since they already limit media dealing with controversial topics. Your anger to me seems to have very little to do with higher ideal and more to do with spoiling for a fight against Islam.
Several points. 1.This was a silly thing for the newspaper to do. But pop culture is always insulting religion - see Kanye West on Rolling Stone, Piss Christ, etc. 2. Muslims who are getting violent over this need to grow up. Criticize the artists and the newspaper. Boycott it if you like, but don't boycott the whole country, especially if you want Western aid after the next tsunami or earthquake, or to support your corrupt Palestinian brothers. 3. It would also be nice if you acknowledged the vicious anti-Jewish stereotypes in your own press. 4. What sense does it make to protest a portayal of Islam as being violent by engaging in violence? 5. For the West the lesson should already be clear. There is a distinct minority of Muslims who want to radically change your way of life and they have no qualms about using violence to achieve that. They have achieved small victories at the BBC and CNN. Even if we can accept that this is a small percentage, since we are talking 1 billion Muslims worldwide, even a small percentage of that constitutes a lot of militants.
This is an excellent point but as I said in an earlier post, "A free society isn't a non-offensive society." To live in a diverse society people are going to be offended by others but the question then is are we going to rely upon government to smooth over everything by regulating speech and cultural practice or is it better to develop tolerance and accomodation for each other's beliefs? I would definately say the latter. In this case its even more complicated since its an international situation and as much as Muslims in Pakistan are offended they should accept that Denmark has the right to decide what's best for their citizens as Pakistan does for its own. What happens in Denmark need not affect what happens in Pakistan unless they make it an issue. That's why I don't want to see the US sticking its nose into this. I will strongly defend the ideals of free press and free association in this country even to the point of saying that Neo-Nazis should be allowed to march in Watts but when it comes to forcing other countries to have more free expression I don't think that's a good idea the same as if Denmark wanted to force us to abandon the death penalty.
i know you weren't talking to me but i am upset with this. someone implies that islam encourages violence. islamics react with violence. WTF
You said: Last I checked the US wasn't involved with this. The only people who seem to want to make the US involved are people who share the same attitude as you. What attitude do you think I have? That sentence rankled me probably more than it should have. We don't need sanctions or a war. We do need a State Department that does not cower to the thugs. Yeah, that would be nice. And we need to stand up for our basic princples and to do so without equivocation. I wish the Japanese wouldn't whitewash their history, but I don't see either the Chinese or the SKoreans as threats to the West. I know some folks get worked up over China, but I don't think they are about to do what Nikita K talked about doing in the 1950s. Yes, the Euros are hypocritical. I am no fan of their ridiculous political correctness. In a sense there is a certain poetic justice about this biting them, but I can't enjoy that aspect of it because I fear what lies ahead for both them and us. It seems that Islam (or at least one variant of it) is the one spoiling for a fight with the West.
