that's in the salary cap era/free agency era, MM. neither existed 20-25 years ago; teams stayed together much longer then. case in point, the '83 broncos featured 15 players from their '77 SB team. what was the roster limit then? 45? 48? so a third of the team. and, again, they were 40-33 in the five years after the SB. that's an average of 8 wins a year. my point isn't that elway went to the '78 steelers; but he certainly didn't go to the '83 oilers, either; or, for that matter, the '02 texans. the broncos were a decent football team for many years prior to his arrival; he made them much better, yes; no question. they didn't; baltimore did and traded elway to denver.
you win. you're right on all counts there. i don't know how i forgot the baltimore trade. but the broncos only won like 2 games the year before. i'm not sure why we're arguing about this, though. if david carr becomes something remotely close to john elway, i'll apologize to you and dave.
Maybe Emmitt Smith was more important, that is about it. QBs are too important. Aikman was a great player. But one of the best QBs ever, no. He could not carry a team like Elway or Marino could. I wouldn't argue he was as good as either. Farve could do things and carry a team in ways Aikman couldn't either, but at the cost of more mistakes so I think Aikman was better for the cast (best OLine, best RB, great receivers) he had. Also, Joe Montana and Bradshaw had great casts too. I definetly think Aikmen was better than Bradshaw, and the latter is in the HOF from his teams 4 superbowls.
Major, you never addressed by points on Jake Plummer's total about face from AZ to Den (stats a few pages back). Do you not see Carr could make such a change (Carr has better stats than Jake did at AZ), or if Carr is only Jake Plummer (who is very efficient and effective backed by a running game and decent WRs) or a little better version of Jake Plummer, that just isn't enough for the Texans.
i don't think the people from denver would agree it was a "total about face." most of the friends i know who are broncos fans aren't plummer fans...they feel he's way too inconsistent...and that the real plummer showed up for the playoffs last year. they're so sold on plummer that they moved up to draft cutler, right?
Actually, I did. In my very first response to his list: One exception I could see is Plummer, but if you ask Denver fans, you'd get a wide range of answers as to whether he's really improved or just keeps going up and down. Gannon might be the best example, though, of a QB that really figured it out late, and he did have a QB guru as a coach.
Sorry Major I missed your post on Plummer. Denver fans won't be happy with a QB until they find another John Elway I am not Plummer's biggest fan, but his performance in Denver has been among the top in the league over that period (see below), and he went to the Pro Bowl. Fan opinion notwithstanding, I think the Broncos brass drafting Cutler had more to do with Plummer being 32 this year and Cutler being a great upside-value pick than a referendum on Plummer. Not many teams can draft an early 1st round QB and stock him away for 3 years, which is exactly what Denver can do. Personally I think Carr has more upside than Jake. There are not that many QBs out there that are BOTH better right now and younger. Sure the Texans could go in another direction, but younger studs are not available in free agency and I don't see any college guys I'd sell out for. The time to do that was last year with VY/Leinart/Cutler. The Texans best bet is probably to hold on Carr and add other pieces to the puzzle with early picks, and use later picks or FA flyer QBs as a back-up plan just in case Carr will never work out.
