Carlos Delfino leaves for Europe

surrender accepted.

I agree though - 4 pages is too long to talk about Delfino's retreat to the smaller (frozen) pond.

 

I never suggested a player if he was from the US would not pay taxes in Russia. All I stated was that any salary reported by the press for a player in Russia (like Delfino) is his net salary and any salary reported by the press for a guy in the NBA is his gross salary.

You for some incredibly bizarre reason see this fit to start some ridiculous and quite frankly extremely rude and immature argument over this. At first I thought maybe the Jennings thread (how you posted there) was just because you were personally ticked off at the guy for leaving the US or not doing well in his studies or whatever. But now I can see that from this thread, no, you are just a xenophobe (or at least it really appears that way - and did you even notice how many members here were thinking the same thing about you based on what you were saying in the Jennings thread?).

Please Sam, I am asking you nicely right now, please try to post with a little maturity or I will have to ignore you. I don't want to because you seem to make a big contribution to the site here and I enjoy the discussions, but if you are going to post in such a factually wrong and immature way then I will ignore you. Because only a fool would respond to such tactics.

 

and so what's the point?

are you saying that this isn't just a trend, but something to take more seriously... or are you just complaining about the exchange rate?

 

you can't just compare valuations of nba franchises to european clubs because nba franchises are different type of organisations.

what i was trying to say, is, that there are some very rich "sponsors" behind some of the european teams. they are comparable to nba owners. in europe there's no salary cap like in the nba. when a team wants to spend 100 million $ for it's players then there's nobody who could stop it from doing so.

going into numbers, nba teams spend about 60 million $ on salaries. european top teams aren't that far away (of course, all you can find are unofficial numbers.). some teams like cska moscow, fc barcelona, real madrid or panathinaikos athen have budgets well over 30 or even 40 million $.

that's not entirely true. but it's not the point, either. you have to consider what an average nba players earns and what he can get in europe. then, you have to factor in fewer games, taxes and cost of living. nba stars might earn more money in the nba, but a lot of average players (and certainly all scrubs) could earn at least the same money in europe.

that's also not true. for example the brand new o2 world in berlin has room for up to 17.000 people and is comparable to the toyota center. in the future there will be more arenas like this. they are planned and financed by companies that also own nba arenas (in this case: anschutz entertainment group, which owns the staples center).

yeah, it started long time ago, but that's also not the point. the point is, that the gap is closing since the 70's and it was never as close as it is now. you can't deny this fact, can you?

just for the record, i don't like the european style at all. i became a basketball fan in the early 90's when, in my opinion, the best basketball was played. i really liked great center matchups (because of dream). i liked the tough defense. i liked athletes like mj. that was the true basketball that i love. european basketball isn't like that and so i don't watch it and don't like it. but, recently, the nba has also taken a wrong path in my opinion. i don't want to see players like chris paul become unguardable because of stupid rule changes and i don't want to see players like yao become less effective because of it, either. but still, i prefer nba basketball over european basketball.

though, the opinion that the best basketball is played in europe isn't mine. in fact, it's a quote from larry bird. but there are a lot of other great basketball minds that think the same way. the best basketball in it's purest form is played in europe. and that's because the european training system, especially for teenagers, is superior to america's.

the economic situation has nothing to do with it. the international basketball will get better regardless. it's just a natural thing. will there be expansion teams in europe in the next 10 years? probably not. but in 10 years the gap between the nba and the euroleague will be closer than it is now. the nba has to be carefull. there are already some european top teams that don't want to be part of the nba because they think they can't get any advantages from it. it's obvious that there isn't enough room for euroleague and nba basketball in europe. that's why david stern is already working on the future. he should be. because strategy-wise he's a good commissioner.

 

I just want to say that SamFisher saying European basketball clubs are valued at $10-$15 million is utterly preposterous to say the very least.

FC Barcelona
Efes Pilsen
Fenerbahce
Real Madrid
CSKA Moscow
Dynamo Moscow
Khimki Moscow Region
Panathinaikos Athens
Olympiakos Piraeus

For sure anyone of those European basketball clubs is in the billion dollar range in financial backing. Hell, some of these clubs spend more on one soccer player than NBA teams spend on their whole roster.

 

If leagues in the soviet union can afford to give a player like delfino that much money, then more power to them. I've always been a fan of Carlos, but I don't think he is worth more than 1.3 million dollars a year.

And yes, like the L.A Galaxy in soccer, many of these teams have sponsors that can throw out ridiculous amounts of cash. But I'm still waiting for the MLS to be one of the best leagues in the world. waiting... waiting....

 

As a function of the salaries (which is their number 1 cost) you can come to a pretty close approximation of what a club would be worth on the market. Though of course some clubs that are associated with soccer clubs would probably worth less independently than associated with the soccer club.

Nobody except the willingness of the owner to lose $$$ on his team (which NBA owners via the l-tax can do too)

$58 million is the NBA salary cap for next year - however NBA payrolls are MUCH larger than that. Dallas had a $100 million annual payroll. In fact only three teams had payrolls under 58 million last year (when the cap was $55 million).[/quote]
I find it hard to believe that PAO is paying over 40 million in annual salary - even if you account for the fact that their starters make in the low $ millions (jasikevicius is probably highest paid around $5m, Spanoulis is $2.7 mm), the rest of the guys on the roster don't make enough to get uup to 40 million. 30 million is possible - of course that's on the high side for europe.

I don't think there's much room for growth here either. Look at the Euro stox 50 this year - it makes the DJIA look good. Maybe russia will use oil & gas money to pay higher salaries but that's about it. Of the major basketball leagues, Spain's economy, built on - yes, a real estate bubble - is headed for a big slump, italy's economy is a shambles and not getting any better. I read an article that was saying this was probably going to be the last year of record transfer fees in soccer/futbol due to darker economic times ahead. I dont doubt this will hit basketball as well and probably harder.

 

SamFisher Panathinaikos is the largest sports club in the world. That means bigger than Manchester United, the Yankees, anything you may have heard of since you seem very lacking in sports knowledge internationally. Also their owner owns one of the world's biggest pharmaceutical companies. $40-$45 million in salaries for basketball is like a drop in the bucket to that club.

They are a much, much richer sports club than the Houston Rockets for example. Are you saying the Rockets are not worth much and could not pay much in salary then? Doesn't seem to add up considering they are always right at the luxury tax.

There are European clubs like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Panathinaikos, Olympiacos that are a lot richer than any NBA team. Olympiacos has so much money the owners themselves are going to buy land and build a new arena that meets NBA standards for new arenas and they are going to pay and fund it by themselves. That sort of thing doesn't even exist in US sports. It's not just sponsors either. The soccer revenue is several times more than the revenue the Knicks or any NBA team could ever dream of. These clubs think nothing of a quarter of a billion in player salaries just for soccer. And you are talking about TV deals that make US sports club pale by comparison.

You can't look at these teams as "a basketball club" because that is not what they are. They are sports unions or athletic associations. They are not a basketball club. It would be like the Astros, Texans, Rockets, Dynamo all combined into one. And actually bigger still than that because it's on an international scale for fan base (not just the Rockets with China for example), not just one city like Houston. You don't seem to even be comprehending this.

Then you have these Russian clubs like Khimki, Dynamo, CSKA where the owners are estimated in $30-$40 billion worth in some cases or in the case of CSKA the Russian government itself owns the team through the army division. They allocate something like $150 million in budget just for soccer and another about $60 million for basketball (granted that's total cost not just salaries). Compare that to the richest sports owner in the US Paul Allen who owns the Trail Blazers, who is estimated at about $16 billion in worth. A $27-$30 million US gross contract for Delfino is nothing at all to these owners. They are guys like Cuban who just have these clubs for hobbies and nothing more. Only Cuban is poor compared to these guys.

 

Ok stop embarrasing yourself. Man U sold for $1.5 billion to the Glazers. Yankees valuation is well north of $1 billion.

Good luck finding somebody to pay that for PAO basketball OR football - because nobody outside greece gives a sh-t about PAO.

That's why they play in glorified smoke filled high school gyms in their domestic league.

Uh - the Rockets basketball team is INFINTELY more valuable than PAO basketball. The Rockets could fetch approximately $400 million in a sale, I would speculate. Why? Because that's the present value of the expected future revenue streams.

PAO's basketball arm could not get anywhere near that. They don't have enough games, enough fans or enough interest. That's why their highest paid player, Jasikevicus, and one of the highest paid players in Europe - makes about 6 million$ per year. The best player in Europe - only making the NBA Mid LEvel Exemption - where is the multi billion dollars in pharmaceutical wealth?

I'm talking about the basketball arm of the operation which is separate form the soccer arm.

I am well aware of European soccer salaries and transfer fees - I am not aware of any cross -subsidization at all here.

IF you have contary evidence - please post it. How much subsidization of PAO basketball is done by PAO soccer?

How much of Ronaldinho's transfer fee will go into Barcelona BC's coffers - my guess is that the answer is ZERO - because Barcelona FC will use it to pay for new SOCCER players.

Actually I can look at them, and I did. And the fact that you think PAO is bigger than the Astros, Texans, Rockets, Dyanmo (I would guess that the big three combned would be worth about $2 billion) is laughable.

Greek basketball is not that lucrative. Nor is Greek soccer. Why? Because Greece is a smaller, not rich mediterranean country that's been among the poorest countries in the EU for most of its recent history.

I'm having trouble comprehending the fact that you think PAO basketball or Barcelona BC has a global fan base in basketball that is anyway comparable to UEFA Champions league.

I don't know how long you've lived in this country, but nobody gives a f-ck about European basketball here. That's why the only place it shows up is on the nether-regions of NBATV. Nor does anybody care about it in Asia. European basketball outside of Europe is roughly as popular as MLS is outside of the U.S. Yeah, exactly.

OK so then why don't all just offer $200 million to Lebron James and be done with it? Or not even LeBron since he's a special case, how about offer a lesser player like Manu Ginobilil $100 million? Instead of paying NBA rejects like Delfino in the low millions?

I know what the answer is - because it woudl be a bad busines decision, because the revenue streams in Europe simply aren't there

Quite simply Nine Gates - you can't have it both ways. If Barcelona BC had access to Barcelona FC's revenue stream - it woudl use it. Obviously it hasn't, or else they wouldn't be spending their money on NBA rejects like Mario Kasun.

 

You don't even have the slightest clue about European pro sports do you Sam? Clubs like Panathinaikos and Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Olympiakos are NOT "basketball clubs". They are not like the Yankees either a baseball only club or even Manchester United a club made on soccer because of the fact that it dominated the UK.

They are international athletic associations. Do you even understand what that is? Actually both FC Barcelona and Panathinaikos are considered to be bigger and worth more than Manchester United. Real Madrid is also I believe. Like I said if you have the Dynamo, Astros, Rockets and Texans all as one team do you really think this is a smaller sports club than a NBA team? Especially when the soccer divisions are bigger than any of the above Houston clubs?

You don't even make any sense with the things you argue Sam. I'm sorry but really come on.

 

Please answer my question as to the extent European Football Clubs share revenue with their basketball counterparts.

You have presented NO EVIDENCE of this - yet it is the linchpin of your hypothesis. I'm going to re-post my previous thoughts until you answer this.

I'm talking about the basketball arm of the operation which is separate from the soccer arm.

I am well aware of European soccer salaries and transfer fees - I am not aware of any cross-subsidization at all here.

IF you have contary evidence - please post it.

How much subsidization of PAO basketball is done by PAO soccer?

How much of Ronaldinho's transfer fee will go into Barcelona BC's coffers - my guess is that the answer is ZERO - because Barcelona FC will use it to pay for new SOCCER players.

P.S. if you think PAO is an elite european soccer club - yeah right. Being a big fish in a mediocre league like the Greek league is nothing special.

 

Are you serious? It is the SAME CLUB. Real Madrid or Panathinaikos, etc. is the CLUB. That includes ALL the sports departments. I think I should just ignore you already.

 

You don't understand the distinction between parent, subidiary, affiliate - do you?

Or maybe you do and you just can't provide any evidence of it.

Just because they are loosely affiliated with the same club doesn't mean they share the same revenue stream.

Does FCB's Champions league earnings go to pay BCB's salaries? I doubt it very much - FCB has its own enormous salaries to pay. They don't have the $$ to spare - the two divisions are separate.

You have not provided any evidence of cross-subsidization here, so I am guessing that you admit that you cannot.

 

.......

F.C. Barcelona had profits of 10M euros in 2007-08. Gross profits, 16M.

But still, currently FC Barcelona have an accumulated debt of 190M.

http://www.metrolatinousa.com/article.cfm?articleID=44311

Take your conclusions...

 

Sí, soy españññol.

 

Personally, I would take the extra $7mm per season

that's a crapload of dough

 

Hey sam...
They are not "loosely affiliated with the same club", infact they are on club with ONE PRESIDENT and that president decides how to manage and distribute the resources of the club to the different teams. YES Football will always be the strongest arm and will most likely receive the must resources but that doesn’t change the fact that all the different sports teams are ONE CLUB...when you are a member (season ticket holders here in NBA) you are a member for the entire club not just one sport.

I understand why it is difficult for you to understand this concept, Its because this concept does not fit your paradigm. And because of this, it is much more difficult for you to accept this idea.