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Carlos Beltran announces retirement

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by tellitlikeitis, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    Are these aligned with Edmonds best years.
     
  2. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    I'm going to guess all Astros fans?...

    There've been very baseball players that look like they were bred to play baseball. Beltran is one of them. He was an incredible physical specimen in his prime; a legitimate five-tool threat who not only did everything on the baseball field, but made it look easy. And those old enough fondly remember his utter destruction of the '04 postseason. Edmonds doesn't have a signature moment like that (though, ironically, it was his insanely great catch in game 7 that ended Beltran's postseason), nor does he have the same reputation.

    So I get why MOST fans would, if randomly asked, go Beltran. But if you sat them down, removed the names and showed them just their numbers..... the answers would be different or, at the very least, more difficult. Edmonds leads him in every rate stat and while he can rightly be knocked for his health struggles, his counting stats pace is right in-line with Beltran's.

    And I'm not even arguing against Beltran's candidacy. I'm merely arguing I don't think he'll be a slam dunk candidate. Once there's some distance to his career, and people look beyond their nostalgic love of Beltran's prime, they'll see numbers that don't really separate him from some of his (near) peers, like Edmonds, Lofton, Jones...
     
  3. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    Don't be stubborn; you're argument essentially boils down to shoving your fingers in your ear and yelling NANANANANANA...

    Carlos Beltran was a terrific player. But, so was Jim Edmonds. And he lasted one year on the Hall of Fame ballot. Even if you can definitively prove Beltran is better (and I think he probably is by a nose), the point is.... if a remarkably similar player doesn't get close to getting in that may very well be bad news for Beltran. Throw in Kenny Lofton, who, like Edmonds, was also one and done on the ballot, despite virtually the same WAR and...

    Doesn't mean he won't get in. There is a lot of respect and admiration for Beltran throughout baseball. But I don't think he's a sure thing. I think Beltran is a tad overrated, and I think it's rooted in EVERYONE still being in (rightful) awe of his 2004 postseason. THAT'S what we think of when we think of Beltran and it's hard to ground that in reality.

    But the reality is... his case is solid but by no means great. And the fact he has several peers not in makes it harder.
     
  4. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    You put too much stock into WAR. Its a crap stat. Get out of 2005. You bring up WAR in every post. Beltran will get in the hall while Edmonds won't.
     
  5. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    Actually. Zero Astro fans.
     
  6. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    It's silly to argue Beltran or Edmonds is clearly/significantly better than the other.

    Beltran has a better HOF case mostly due to more PAs. Credit to him because longevity matters, but he wasn't significantly better than Jim.
     
  7. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    Actually you have said that Edmonds was better. Now you are arguing that Beltran is slightly better but not enough to garner enough HOF votes. And yes his counting stats for k's is basically the same as beltran's even though he has thousands less at bats. Strikeouts do actually suck. Did you notice how the Astros offense improved when they cleared out all the K's from the lineup?
     
    #88 Tomstro, Nov 16, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  8. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Those high strikeout guys were hitting about .200, not close to .300 like Edmonds. Springer is the most similar player we have to Edmonds.
     
    Hey Now! likes this.
  9. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Edmonds got screwed by senile old guys hanging onto their legends. Beltran has an extra 7 years for those guys to die or have their votes striped from them.
     
  10. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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  11. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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  12. raining threes

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    That would make a full circle.

    Everybody back in baseball but Luhnow.

    Powers that be dont like win at all cost GM's.

    Most fans do though.
     
    lnchan and desihooper like this.
  13. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    And Orange Team bad... as Beltran was either 1) framed, 2) not as complicit, or 3) worthy of redemption.
     
    raining threes likes this.
  14. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/...rlos-beltran-joins-a-rod-other-notable-names/
    Hall of fame ballot is now out...

    2. The Beltrán question
    We will be delving into many individual candidacies more at a later date, but just on the surface, Carlos Beltrán looks like the only Hall of Famer from this group of ballot rookies. The other first timers of note: John Lackey, Jered Weaver, Francisco Rodríguez, Matt Cain, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jayson Werth, J.J. Hardy, Mike Napoli, Andre Ethier and, well, you get the point. It's Beltrán or bust for this class (though I suppose K-Rod could hang around on the ballot for a bit).

    He has the numbers. Beltrán in parts of 20 seasons was a nine-time All-Star and had the "it" factor as a five-tool superstar. He hit .279/.350/.486 (119 OPS+) with 2,725 hits, 1,582 runs, 1,587 RBI, 565 doubles, 435 homers and 312 stolen bases. In 65 career playoff games, he hit .307/.412/.609 with 15 doubles, 16 home runs, 42 RBI and 45 runs. Among center fielders, he ranks eighth in WAR (not far off Joe DiMaggio and ahead of Duke Snider, Andre Dawson and Richie Ashburn).


    It would've been a lot less complicated to argue his numbers -- and I have no doubt that some people will push back against those as worthy numbers, as misguided as that argument would be -- but then we have the Astros sign-stealing scandal.

    I have absolutely no idea how this will affect matters. Connections to PEDs have kept a number of otherwise-worthy candidates out. This isn't that, but Beltrán was said to be one of the ringleaders of the sign-stealing operation in Houston in 2017 (his final year as an MLB player). He didn't really pad his stats that season -- it was the worst offensive season he had post-2000 -- but his involvement could cause him to lose votes via the so-called character clause.

    This isn't just about Beltrán. We might end up having to discuss this down the road with some players from that Astros team, most notably Jose Altuve, who has a great foundation for a Hall of Fame resume right now.


    For me, this is easily the most impactful storyline on the 2023 ballot. We'll find out in the coming weeks what the voting body collectively thinks about the matter.
     
  15. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news...of-fame-ballot-jacoby-ellsbury-carlos-beltran

    The most significant newcomer on the ballot is Carlos Beltrán. He only spent parts of three seasons with the Yankees, but the former outfielder’s first-time eligibility is notable because of his role in the Astros’ 2017 sign-stealing scandal. Beltrán, who retired after winning the World Series with Houston that year, is the first player involved in the scandal to appear on a Hall of Fame ballot, which have generally not been kind to players linked to other forms of cheating, such as performance-enhancing drugs.
     

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