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Carlos Beltran announces retirement

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by tellitlikeitis, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    Are these aligned with Edmonds best years.
     
  2. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    I'm going to guess all Astros fans?...

    There've been very baseball players that look like they were bred to play baseball. Beltran is one of them. He was an incredible physical specimen in his prime; a legitimate five-tool threat who not only did everything on the baseball field, but made it look easy. And those old enough fondly remember his utter destruction of the '04 postseason. Edmonds doesn't have a signature moment like that (though, ironically, it was his insanely great catch in game 7 that ended Beltran's postseason), nor does he have the same reputation.

    So I get why MOST fans would, if randomly asked, go Beltran. But if you sat them down, removed the names and showed them just their numbers..... the answers would be different or, at the very least, more difficult. Edmonds leads him in every rate stat and while he can rightly be knocked for his health struggles, his counting stats pace is right in-line with Beltran's.

    And I'm not even arguing against Beltran's candidacy. I'm merely arguing I don't think he'll be a slam dunk candidate. Once there's some distance to his career, and people look beyond their nostalgic love of Beltran's prime, they'll see numbers that don't really separate him from some of his (near) peers, like Edmonds, Lofton, Jones...
     
  3. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    Don't be stubborn; you're argument essentially boils down to shoving your fingers in your ear and yelling NANANANANANA...

    Carlos Beltran was a terrific player. But, so was Jim Edmonds. And he lasted one year on the Hall of Fame ballot. Even if you can definitively prove Beltran is better (and I think he probably is by a nose), the point is.... if a remarkably similar player doesn't get close to getting in that may very well be bad news for Beltran. Throw in Kenny Lofton, who, like Edmonds, was also one and done on the ballot, despite virtually the same WAR and...

    Doesn't mean he won't get in. There is a lot of respect and admiration for Beltran throughout baseball. But I don't think he's a sure thing. I think Beltran is a tad overrated, and I think it's rooted in EVERYONE still being in (rightful) awe of his 2004 postseason. THAT'S what we think of when we think of Beltran and it's hard to ground that in reality.

    But the reality is... his case is solid but by no means great. And the fact he has several peers not in makes it harder.
     
  4. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    You put too much stock into WAR. Its a crap stat. Get out of 2005. You bring up WAR in every post. Beltran will get in the hall while Edmonds won't.
     
  5. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    Actually. Zero Astro fans.
     
  6. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    It's silly to argue Beltran or Edmonds is clearly/significantly better than the other.

    Beltran has a better HOF case mostly due to more PAs. Credit to him because longevity matters, but he wasn't significantly better than Jim.
     
  7. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    Actually you have said that Edmonds was better. Now you are arguing that Beltran is slightly better but not enough to garner enough HOF votes. And yes his counting stats for k's is basically the same as beltran's even though he has thousands less at bats. Strikeouts do actually suck. Did you notice how the Astros offense improved when they cleared out all the K's from the lineup?
     
    #88 Tomstro, Nov 16, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  8. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Those high strikeout guys were hitting about .200, not close to .300 like Edmonds. Springer is the most similar player we have to Edmonds.
     
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  9. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Edmonds got screwed by senile old guys hanging onto their legends. Beltran has an extra 7 years for those guys to die or have their votes striped from them.
     
  10. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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  11. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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  12. raining threes

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    That would make a full circle.

    Everybody back in baseball but Luhnow.

    Powers that be dont like win at all cost GM's.

    Most fans do though.
     
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  13. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    And Orange Team bad... as Beltran was either 1) framed, 2) not as complicit, or 3) worthy of redemption.
     
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  14. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/...rlos-beltran-joins-a-rod-other-notable-names/
    Hall of fame ballot is now out...

    2. The Beltrán question
    We will be delving into many individual candidacies more at a later date, but just on the surface, Carlos Beltrán looks like the only Hall of Famer from this group of ballot rookies. The other first timers of note: John Lackey, Jered Weaver, Francisco Rodríguez, Matt Cain, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jayson Werth, J.J. Hardy, Mike Napoli, Andre Ethier and, well, you get the point. It's Beltrán or bust for this class (though I suppose K-Rod could hang around on the ballot for a bit).

    He has the numbers. Beltrán in parts of 20 seasons was a nine-time All-Star and had the "it" factor as a five-tool superstar. He hit .279/.350/.486 (119 OPS+) with 2,725 hits, 1,582 runs, 1,587 RBI, 565 doubles, 435 homers and 312 stolen bases. In 65 career playoff games, he hit .307/.412/.609 with 15 doubles, 16 home runs, 42 RBI and 45 runs. Among center fielders, he ranks eighth in WAR (not far off Joe DiMaggio and ahead of Duke Snider, Andre Dawson and Richie Ashburn).


    It would've been a lot less complicated to argue his numbers -- and I have no doubt that some people will push back against those as worthy numbers, as misguided as that argument would be -- but then we have the Astros sign-stealing scandal.

    I have absolutely no idea how this will affect matters. Connections to PEDs have kept a number of otherwise-worthy candidates out. This isn't that, but Beltrán was said to be one of the ringleaders of the sign-stealing operation in Houston in 2017 (his final year as an MLB player). He didn't really pad his stats that season -- it was the worst offensive season he had post-2000 -- but his involvement could cause him to lose votes via the so-called character clause.

    This isn't just about Beltrán. We might end up having to discuss this down the road with some players from that Astros team, most notably Jose Altuve, who has a great foundation for a Hall of Fame resume right now.


    For me, this is easily the most impactful storyline on the 2023 ballot. We'll find out in the coming weeks what the voting body collectively thinks about the matter.
     
  15. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news...of-fame-ballot-jacoby-ellsbury-carlos-beltran

    The most significant newcomer on the ballot is Carlos Beltrán. He only spent parts of three seasons with the Yankees, but the former outfielder’s first-time eligibility is notable because of his role in the Astros’ 2017 sign-stealing scandal. Beltrán, who retired after winning the World Series with Houston that year, is the first player involved in the scandal to appear on a Hall of Fame ballot, which have generally not been kind to players linked to other forms of cheating, such as performance-enhancing drugs.
     
  16. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    Interesting... finally...

    https://pittsburghbaseballnow.com/perrotto-explaining-my-hall-of-fame-ballot/
    With all that out of the way, here are the nine players I voted for:

    Carlos Beltran – Yes, he was the only player named in Major League Baseball’s report on the Houston Astros’ electronic sign-stealing scandal. What the Astros did was wrong. To think they were the only team doing it, though, is silly. They just happened to get caught. Beltran had 435 home runs, 312 stolen bases, and nine All-Star Game berths. That is a Hall of Fame career, at least to me. Beltran is the only newcomer on the ballot who got my vote.
     
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  17. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    So here we go with my column about why I’m not including Carlos Beltrán on my 2023 Hall of Fame ballot.



    Now, about my ballot. Beltrán is the best of the newcomers, but I voted only for six players I endorsed previously: Todd Helton, Andruw Jones, Jeff Kent, Scott Rolen, Gary Sheffield and Billy Wagner.

    You’ll notice I remain a “no” on Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez. I voted in the past for players alleged or confirmed to have used performance-enhancing drugs, including Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. I draw the line with Rodriguez and Ramirez because both were suspended after Major League Baseball established firm rules and penalties for using PEDs.

    I’m also a “no” on Omar Vizquel. I voted for Vizquel initially, but MLB investigated him for allegations of physically abusing his ex-wife, suspending its probe only after he stopped working in baseball. Vizquel also reached a confidential agreement in June to settle an allegation that he sexually harassed a bat boy with autism.

    Beltrán presents a new type of off-field question for voters: What to do with a player who helped create the illegal electronic sign-stealing system used by the 2017 and 2018 Astros? Major League Baseball punished the organization, manager AJ Hinch and general manager Jeff Luhnow, but not the players. Commissioner Rob Manfred said in his decision that he previously determined he would hold the manager and GM responsible for “misconduct of this kind.” The league also granted players immunity in exchange for their honest testimony.

    The scandal was one of the biggest in major-league history. Some fans surely do not want to see any position player from those Astros teams enshrined in Cooperstown. I won’t go that far, even though The Athletic’s Evan Drellich and I were the reporters who initially uncovered the Astros’ misconduct. Few things in this world are black and white. That goes for Beltran’s candidacy, and the future candidacies of other position players from those Astros teams, too.

    It’s quite possible I will vote for Beltrán in the future. I stay open-minded on my ballot and review it each year. I voted for Bonds and Clemens from 2015 until they ran out of eligibility in 2022, changing my mind under the belief we already had elected PED users. But while Beltrán certainly has a strong case for Cooperstown, I’m not there yet.

    As I’ve acknowledged before, my logic when voting for the Hall is not always consistent. The sarcasm of my first paragraph aside, I fully expect readers to find holes in my thinking. But in the interest of transparency, here are the questions I considered when weighing Beltrán’s candidacy.

    Are his numbers worthy?

    Yes, though Beltrán is not the slam-dunk, first-ballot choice that say, Ken Griffey Jr. was in 2016. Beltrán is one of six players, and the only switch-hitter, to reach 2,500 hits, 300 homers and 300 stolen bases, a testament to his all-around offensive ability. Two of the others, Willie Mays and Andre Dawson, are in the Hall. Two more, Rodriguez and Bonds, would be if not for their PED issues. The other is Steve Finley.

    Beltrán won three Gold Gloves in center field. He helped lead five different teams to the playoffs and was an absolute monster in the postseason, producing a .307/.412/.609 slash line with 16 homers in 256 plate appearances.

    Here is what gives me a bit of pause: Beltrán’s highest MVP finish was fourth in 2006. His only other top 10 result was ninth in 2003. And his two most similar batters, according to Baseball Reference, were Dawson and Billy Williams. Both are Hall of Famers, but it took Williams six tries to get in and Dawson nine.

    But is a comparison with Dawson and Williams even fair?

    Not really. […]

    I don’t normally withhold first-ballot votes. If I view a player as worthy, I vote for him. What is the difference here?

    This is where I’m conflicted. I don’t like the message writers send when we act as if cheating, be it through PEDs or illegal sign stealing, never happened. Yet in both those examples, it can be argued that the players’ behavior reflected the sport’s culture at the time. We don’t know who exactly did what, and to what extent. So why even try to distinguish?

    Manfred’s statement on the Astros adds another layer to that argument. Noting bench coach Alex Cora was an active participant in the scheme and Hinch did nothing to stop it. Manfred wrote, “I recognize that some players may have understood that their conduct was not only condoned by the club, but encouraged it.” He added that Luhnow did not forward league memoranda on the rules and did not confirm the players and field staff were in compliance.

    So, if you want to make excuses for Beltrán — he didn’t know! — you can make excuses. Upon taking a job with the Yankees’ YES Network last season, Beltrán said the Astros, “felt in our hearts that we were being more efficient and smarter than any (other) team.” But he also said, “Looking back now, yes, we did cross the line … we were wrong. I wish I would’ve asked more questions about what we were doing.”

    The Astros, though, were not the only club to cross the line. The fourth paragraph of our initial report in The Athletic began, “Electronic sign stealing is not a single-team issue.” We later reported the Red Sox made illegal use of their video room in 2018, after Manfred had officially warned clubs to halt such activity. The Yankees and other clubs did the same before Manfred issued his warning, partly overlapping with Beltrán’s time with the club.

    To this point, however, the Astros’ trash-can-banging scheme was the most egregious team activity known to have occurred. Beltrán was a ringleader. And what is it the Hall’s rules say? “Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”

    Still, hasn’t Beltrán been punished enough?

    I struggled with this question, too. Unlike many fans of other clubs, I do not believe the Astros’ players got off easy, even though they escaped formal punishment from MLB.

    The 2023 season will be the fourth since Manfred’s ruling. José Altuve and Alex Bregman are the only position players remaining from the 2017 club. But rest assured, the team will continue to be jeered on the road. The legacies of Altuve, Bregman and two stars who moved on to other clubs, Carlos Correa and George Springer, will remain a subject of debate.

    Prior to the scandal, Beltrán’s reputation was impeccable. Fans and a blue-ribbon panel voted him the winner of the 2013 Roberto Clemente Award, the highest honor a player can receive. Teammates revered him for his performance, his leadership, his knowledge of the game.

    Yet, of all the members of the 2017 Astros, Beltrán arguably has taken the biggest hit. Retired at the time, he was the only player named in Manfred’s report. The Mets fired him as manager almost immediately, less than three months after hiring him. Only last season did he resurface as a television analyst with the Yankees.

    He has suffered. All of the Astros have, and rightly so. Part of me thinks that withholding a Hall vote from Beltrán is just piling on. A bigger part of me thinks his role in the scandal cannot be ignored.

    What should we do with future Astros candidates for the Hall?

    This is a question voters almost certainly will face with Altuve, and possibly with Bregman, Springer and Correa, too.

    None is close to the end of his career. Even Springer, the oldest at 33, figures to play at least five more years. The same is true for Altuve, who is 32. Correa and Bregman, both 28, could play 10 more seasons. Factor in the five-year waiting period from the time a player retires, and we are at least 10 years away from the discussion even taking place.

    It’s possible the anger over the Astros will fade over time, particularly if information emerges implicating other teams. But even then, if any team went as far as the Astros, we’d probably know it by now. So for the 2017 and 2018 team’s future Hall of Fame candidates, the issue figures to surface at some level.

    Altuve, who is 65 hits short of 2,000 and stands a reasonable chance of 3,000, will be perhaps the most interesting case. Correa has said Altuve “never cheated.” The word “never” might be an exaggeration, but the ratio of trash-can bangs to pitches for Altuve was the fewest of any player on the Astros’ 2017 roster — about 2.7 percent according to Tony Adams, an Astros fan who logged the team’s 2017 home games that were available on video, 58 of the 81. Beltrán was at 18 percent, Bregman at 16 percent, Correa at 15.4 percent, Springer at 14.4 percent.

    Perhaps none of this will matter by 2033 or 2038 for the players other than Beltrán, assuming one or more of them builds a legitimate Hall of Fame argument. Beltrán is the initial test case. He figures to reach Cooperstown eventually, even if I never vote for him.

    I’m guessing I will at some point. It just didn’t feel right this year. Maybe next year it will.
     
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  18. rpr52121

    rpr52121 Sober Fan
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    Rosenthal from theathletic post similar reservations about Beltran especially this year.

    My main annoyance with all these, is that still seem to put the Astros incident as warranting this much discussion and ignoring other known instances of similar pitch cheating throughout the league. Rosenthal even tries to justify it with the argument that if any other team had done something as bad, certainly we would have heard about it by now.
     
  19. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard
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    But... we DID hear about it! Why else would the Red Sox and Yankees get fined? And all these players saying every team in the 2017 playoffs cheated... Ugh.
     
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