Sure... right after you explain to the prisoners and their lawyers that rapes and beatings are all part of the system in place by agents of our government to make sure they're not having too nice of an experience.
No explanation needed. Prison, rape, and ass-kickings are synonomous. Everyone knows it. Criminals tend to fear an ass-fu*ing more than the time, as it's an expected risk, but of course ecen that's not enough... That's just the way it is. And like I said - tell the guards to change their ways. If you don't force them to change, then you're talking to a wall. Oh, and tell the other inmates to stop beating and screwing their cellmates, since they're the ones doing it. It's a system that is pretty much impossible to change unless you're willing to separate everyone. And that would cost boucou $$... So much that you'd rather just execute everyone. The system is what it is. Like it or not. And you ain't supposed to like it, Timing.
it is truly remarkable that anyone is for the death penalty. when i was a younger kid i was for killing the bastards, but as i grew older i came to the conclusion that the death penalty is the worng method. Besides the fact the it is not a deterent, the justice system is not reliable, the DP should be removed.
What is truly remarkable is that anyone can be categorically against the death penalty - in all cases. Who here thinks Tim McVeigh didn't deserve the death penalty? Who here thinks that if Osama were to be caught alive, he shouldn't recieve the death penalty? Who here really thinks that someone who would rape and murder a child doesn't deserve the death penalty? Some people deserve to die.
I don't buy the system is what it is. The system is what we make it. How about we take that very considerable amount of money we're wasting on trying death penalty cases and spend that money on the salaries of prison guards who are tremendously underpaid. A pay raise for prison guards, along with other measures such as actual rehabilitation of inmates might actually begin to change the system we supposedly can't change. G'nite...
Just like a pay raise for airport security guards is supposed to increase the quality of the security at airports? I don't think so. In either case, you're not going to change the environment. If you don't change the environment, then the system cannot change. Personnel are replaceable, and the market always says (in those particular industries) that the person who is trained but willing to accept lower pay will get the job. That will not improve the system. You change the system by making institutional changes. My recipe for change: End the drug war, legalize drugs (or at least pot) and reduce the prison population by 80% or so. Then you've only got to deal with about 200,000 inmates nationwide, on average. That is a far more manageable population than over 1 million... Enact discipline within a reduced penitentiary atmosphere. The "Boot Camp" expirements have shown positive results, they've just been mismanaged, and have not received adequate funds. But smaller groupings, more discipline, less privacy, etc... That is not possible with the huge prisoner population we have now. Until that population is reduced, nothing will change. As for the death penalty, death row inmates comprise a *distinct* minority of the prisoner population. The *vast* majority of the $ being spent goes towards what is called the general (prisoner) population, not the death row guys. If you want to save money, look elsewhere. If you want to change the system, look no further than the State Legislature.
The world must be coming to an end because I strongly agree with everything treeman says. Prisons have become criminal network recruiting stations. You think the gang problem is bad in the hood? It's nothing compared to prison, where gangs usually divide up along racial lines. What makes this worse is that many prisoners who would normally have no interest in joining a gang are forced to for their own protection. And as many after-school TV specials have taught us, gang members usually aren't the nicest of role-models and influences. Is this really the best solution? Alot of the "they did the crime, they do the time" talk ignores the fact that not all criminals are the same. You take a poor inner city kid who's been busted for selling dope a couple of times and put him in prison, he's not going to be a nice guy when he gets out in 3-5 years. In fact, he's more likely to commit another crime. But was he initially any worse than the kid in the suburbs who sold dope but had parents who get the best legal defense money can buy? Does he deserve the "Tossing Salad" man just because he was poor? Treeman is right about the drug problem. It's stupid and arbitrary to claim some substances are inherently worse than others. It's not like the legalization of opiates will also lead to the legalization of using opiates while driving or working. I don't necessarily think the death penalty is wrong in theory. However, I think the flaws in our legal system are significant enough to make it impractible. No innocent person should ever have to die.
Then, why are you for killing Osama if life in prison is a more cruel punishment? If anyone deserves life in prison, it is Osama. This way he can't get his 72 Virgins for a while. POW's have more rights than American criminals. I wouldn't mind giving prisoners the choice of suicide or life in prison if this is what you're suggesting. This way, someone stupid might actually choose the more cruel life in prison. I don't see the purpose of the VIII amendment if capital punishment is allowed. Most cultures have used some form of torture in there past and caning was a prefered method in the Southern States of the US at one point. Caning isn't unusual by the standard that we've done it before and others do it now. What is more cruel being caned 10 times or capital punishment? They take about the same length of time to be executed unless you count all the years a person is dead. I guess my problem is that I value my life and I see no instance where I would just give up and say "Damn, I'm a wuss and I can't take it. Kill me". Killing me is the worst thing that can be done to me with the exception of torturing me then killing me. I'm for life.
*Raises his hand* I can't justify murder under any circumstances. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth eh? Standing by one's principals means doing so in all cases, even heinous ones like you've mentioned. I completely agree with you, though, re: the drug trade. I think certain drug offenses should still be punished (like those who sell to children) but otherwise go ahead and de-criminalize it. Instead of spending billions fighting the drug war we could regulate it, tax it, and spend part of the profits helping people recover from drug and other substance abuse problems.
Timing- Again, they should be treated humanely. You seem to think that I want them to be treated poorly. They should not be treated nicely but still humanely. However, that's not how prison works. I don't see what your arguement is.
If it is very expensive, then they are doing it wrong. I think basically every prison out there already has cells. My only suggestion is do not open the cell doors. Surely it cannot cost that much to deliver food. An isolated prisoner should not cost any extra money to maintain. I would suspect this is at least in part a result of the extra security measures involved in making a prison super-max, plus the reduced number of prisoners placed in the prison. If the inmates have no access to other people, there is no need to worry about them becoming violent. The only person they can hurt is themselves, which is their own perrogative as far as I am concerned.
I'm a little late on this thread, and I normally just read these types of threads; however, this is a fascinating topic and one that I have struggled with. I can see both sides and I agree with treeman that some people deserve to die. For example: Albert Fish, one of the most despicable human beings ever, was executed by the electric chair at the age of 66 at Sing Sing. I think he is still the oldest individual to ever be put to death. He had killed several people in his lifetime, but the final straw was his killing of a neighbor or acquaintance (can't remember for sure) little girl that was 12 years old. After killing her, this f*cker then cooked her and ate her! He also was a well-known masochist and sadist as doctors x-rayed his pelvic region and found over 30 sewing needles where he had jabbed them through that region. He even liked to stick rose petals through his urethra. If you think that this is too unreal, do a google search on Albert Fish, and you will find even more disgusting stuff. When he was finally caught and found that he was going to be electrocuted, he remarked something like, "Oh goody! Getting electrocuted shall be the ultimate thrill! The only pain that I have not experienced!" Now, tell me something - how do you defend someone like that from getting the death penalty??? Or how about Edmund Kemper?? He killed his grandparents when he was 15 then like 6 hitchhikers then a friend of his mother's and then finally his mother. I think he either took an axe or a sledgehammer and bashed her head in. He then ripped her voicebox out and shoved it down the garbage disposal. He told the police, "that was to get back at her for always yelling at me." What was sad is that he was friends with some of the local policemen and turned himself in because they had no idea who was behind these killings. He eagerly anticipated the death penalty but was given life in prison without parole instead. Once again, here is an individual that has made no secret that he is guilty and actually wants to die. I know, I know...then do the opposite because that would be a worse fate, but I don't see how you defend someone like this from getting the death penalty. However, the classic case and the one that has made me lean more toward in favor of the death penalty was watching a video of Richard Speck in prison. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Mr. Speck, he brutally murdered 8 nurses in Chicago in 1966. If he hadn't lost count and realized that the nurse who let him in had hidden under the bed, then who knows how many more people he would have killed. He was given life in prison without parole. Well, near the end of his life (he died of a heart attack) he had made a video. I don't know how they did this or why it was done, but it was one of the most disturbing things that I have ever seen. In the video, Speck had tried to make himself look more feminine and had even developed some crude breasts. He jokingly referred to himself as a "prison b****". He had a black man come into his cell and he performed oral sex on the guy among other things. It was very gross and graphic. He then said, "if only those people that were against me getting the death penalty could see me now! They would be upset over how much fun I'm having!" Now, granted, not every criminal will command the power and respect of a Richard Speck or a Charles Manson, etc. However, it is still sickening to see this individual, Speck, enjoying himself when he probably should have been exterminated 30 years earlier. I understand that there are innocent persons convicted of crimes, but the death penalty should only be for individuals lower than vermin like Fish, Kemper, and Speck. Of course, it is deciding on where to draw the line. But I know that I find it hard to rationalize to myself that it is better to have people like Manson, Speck, Kemper, etc. spending life and maybe enjoying themselves (possibly) in prison instead of them being wiped from this planet.
I have not read any but the last few posts in this thread. I just wanted to see if the thread, being on page 4, was still about the death penalty and not about the mating habits of sea lions. Way to go everyone.
Princess you can't even see your own argument so seeing mine is probably going to be tough. Treeman better pay increases morale and the quality of applicants. We waste hundreds of millions of dollars on executing people, that's not chump change. And while I agree with legalizing drugs the odds of that happening are next to zero.
I know what I believe. The problem is that it doesn't make any sense to you. You really haven't even tried to say yours. All you're doing is tell us we're all wrong.
No, it doesn't make any sense period. You want inmates to accept the consequences of their choice which includes the beatings and rapes that you're supposedly against. You do the math there. You are us all of a sudden? When did that happen? Justification to me means that it is right, not that it happens or is accepted. Slavery was justified (just as this is) but that does not make it right. Justification = right to you Slavery was justified Slavery = right Slavery was justified but that does not make it right. HUH!????!
You're not understanding what I said. I think justification of something means you are trying to find reasons to make it right. I don't think you can justify anything that is not right. Like the example of slavery. It was the practice of the time and widely excepted and "justified." But does any of that make it right? No. And nothing makes prisoners getting AIDS from being raped in prison right either. However, there are some people in prison that I wouldn't feel sorry for if this happened to them (like the guy who killed the little van Dam girl in California). Do I think it's right? No. Does it happen? Yes, which means that it's part of the consequence for committing the crime. Is it right? Still no. Is it right that criminals have a hard time getting a job after they get out of prison because they have a criminal record? Not really. Not all criminals are bad people and if they've served their time, they deserve a chance until they screw up again. But they're judged because they did something bad. It's a consequence of their crime.
I think it was a mistake to execute Tim McVeigh. I was for locking him up for life and restricting his contact to monitored individuals or federal agents. Some day he might have been a useful source for identifying other domestic terrorists and larger networks. Treeman I am all for giving convicted murders the option of taking their own life rather than a life sentence. I guess I am for the death penalty, as long as it is administered by the guilty party. I don't believe anyone with a life sentence w/o parole has ever escaped a US prison and killed another. That is almost certainly a better rate of success than the rate of executing the truly guilty versus truly not guilty. I used to agree with the argument executing 1 innocent was worth being able to execute 100 or 1000 guilty--the type of trade a pro-death penalty person who looks at the issue honestly must accept (actually hopes for numbers like that). But now I view it as no matter what our legal system should be built fundamentally limit the innocents being convicted. This is one of the great American principles that best reflects a civilized and freedom loving society. Now society should protect itself by removing the chance convicted murderers can kill again, life in prison w/o parole does this. However, by giving life in prison, an innocent person has that chance to be freed if they come up with exonerating evidence. Oh, and I think mixing up violent criminals with non-violent criminals and juveniles in our prisons and jails is one of the dumbest ideas any society ever came up with. Yeah, let us set up a situation where nonviolent criminals are raped, beaten and tortured, we are teaching them such good life skills. And now that we have taught these future violent perpetrators some skills lets turn them loose back into society. What I great idea for a incarceration system whose premise is supposed to protecting society.
I could not agree with you more. All these bastards you mention deserve to die. Osama and McVeigh would get their hands and legs and their freakin privates blown out before being executed if it was up to me. They should be treated exactly the way they treat others. They should suffer in the same exact way they make others suffer. Child molesters should just have their ***** cut off and handed to them. Then if they still have not learned their lesson, execute their ass.
