Can you have two religions and be faithful to both?

Thanks for the response Mathloom. I’ll just give a couple of quick preliminary answers and then I’ll have to get back to this latter this weekend or next week.

Let me set the stage a bit first. Remember that back a couple of pages we looked at 5.75 which appeared to criticize certain groups for going off track with their beliefs. It corrected them by saying that Jesus and Mary did eat food. This is important because it is clearly not a reference to Biblical Christian beliefs, because the Bible clearly says that Jesus and Mary were human and did eat. There were a lot of Gnostic and other heretical groups at the time, however, and at least one of them held the belief that Jesus pure spirit and did not eat. Also in 5, iirc, there is a passage that criticizes those who believed that Mary was a god. Again, this is clearly not a reference to Biblical Christian beliefs, but again there were groups at the time that had strayed from the teachings of the bible and that believed that Mary was a god. We need to recognise, then, that the Qur’an is often addressing heresies of the day and not Biblical Christianity. In fact, as I pointed out in my last post, it is very complimentary to the Bible in a large number of places, ie, 2.62, 5.47, 5.69, 10.94, and there are a number others as well. Otoh, I don’t believe it ever criticizes the Bible, at least I haven’t found such a criticism.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/

With this as background I’ll have a look at some of the issues you’ve raised and try to see if they are references to Biblical Christianity or one of these heretical groups. One more quick quote:

005.066
YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

This is in essence what I think the Qur’an is addressing when it criticizes Jews and Christians. It criticizes those who have strayed from their true faith, not those who have kept to it. It was indeed true then, as it is now, that there were many groups that called themselves Christian but that did not have a belief system that is consistent with what the Bible says. It’s probably also worth noting, and I’m sure you will agree, that this has also proved to be true for Islam. There are many sects in Islam today including large sects that have a belief system so different that many Sunnis and Shias don’t consider them Muslims, ie the Ismailis and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, which incidentally has a huge mosque right here in Calgary.

Now back to your passages. The question now is, are these referring to Biblical Christianity or to one of the heretical beliefs of the day? Historical context is very important in the Qur’an and according to Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Surah Introductions to the Qur'an, that later section of 19 is directed at the inhabitants of Mecca, so it would be interesting to know what groups existed in Mecca at that time. That will have to be a research project for later, however.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/maududi/

There are some clues here, however, and my other Muslim friends have also suggested to me that what this is about is a refuting that God had physical relations with Mary, hence the outrage. This is, of course, not what Biblical Christians believe. Iirc, Muslims and Christians believe that Mary got pregnant in exactly the same way. The difference is that Muslims don’t follow through on the significance of that event, and indeed that significance does not appear to be laid out in the Qur’an, which is most curious but at least conceivable under the “different pens” theory.

A clue here comes in an earlier reference:
019.035
YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
PICKTHAL: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.

The bolded part, which occurs in all three translations essentially the same way, is exactly how Christians believe Mary became pregnant, so we can see that this must be addressing some other belief. As I mentioned above, I believe that this was addressing another heresy of the time a belief that God had had physical relations with Mary to make her pregnant. This could be confirmed by having a closer look at the various groups present in that area at that time, but that would be a next level research project, at least for me. Others might have more ready access to that kind of information.

The next point I’d like to touch on quickly right now comes from this passage:

004.171
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

All three transitions seem to be very consistent on this. They all say that Jesus was 3 things, a messenger, God’s Word, and God’s Spirit. These last two are very powerful concepts in Christianity.

John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 1;&version=31;

The Baptism of Jesus
13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"

15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter

I think this is an example of the kind of misunderstanding between Muslims and Christians I referred to before. I think most Christians will read 4.171 and see Jesus pretty much as he’s described in the Bible, a messenger, The Word, and filled with the Holy Spirit. But since Muslims generally don’t talk about The Word or the Holy Spirit they tend to skip right past that part in the text and just see it as saying that he was just a messenger. Curious indeed.

I have lots more to respond to but no time now, so it will have to wait for a later time.

Thanks again for your response Mathloom.

 

Thanks again for your patience Mathloom. Here’s the rest of my response to your post.

First, I like to correct the wording in my third last paragraph. It should read, “But perhaps since Muslims generally don’t talk about The Word or the Holy Spirit they tend to skip right past that part in the text and just see it as saying that he was just a messenger.” I’m speculating there, not drawing a conclusion.

Next, in your section entitled “Regarding Christians being pointed to join Islam”, I’m not seeing that argument being made in the sections you quoted. Could you please elaborate? Also remember that that section in 5 that fairly clearly appears to tell Christians to follow the Bible, and further says that if they don’t they are “no better than those who rebel”. How does this fit with what you see this section as saying?

Here it is again:
005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

Regarding 016.063, I don’t think you’ll find many Christians who disagree that a number of groups have twisted the meaning of the Bible and gone off track. This passage is not making a universal statement, of course, because we have already seen a number of passages that say that a number of Christians are on the right path. Also note that the same can be said of Islam today. There are groups who kill innocent people and claim that it’s sanctioned by the Qur’an. There are also groups who believe that Muhammad didn’t die and that he went to India afterwards, etc., so this is not a problem that is exclusive to Christianity.

Regarding 061.006, on its face this may be a problematic verse. Unfortunately I don’t have the time to do much research on it right now.

Regarding the question of sinlessness, my understanding is that there are several passages that either direct Muhammad seek forgiveness for sin, or that refer to him doing so in some way, including 040.055, 047.019 and 048.002, and that there is no similar reference for Jesus. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

005.089 is a very interesting passage that shows the kinder, gentler, face of Islam that I’m familiar with from my Muslim friends, but that I think is not often seen on television.

Thanks again for your patience.

 

I prayed to every God I've ever heard of asking that the Rockets would
win in game 7.

Another tick for atheism.

 

You screwed it up for us. He told me He was pissed when He heard you call him Zeus.

 

How petty a deity to give the evil Lakers a victory because some guy got his name wrong.

 

i think he turned the reigns over to satan for the day.