Can you have two religions and be faithful to both?

The woman is being absurd and is a perfect representation of the "have it your way" faith system that is out of control in religion.

Yes, you must believe Christ is the son of God and accept him as your Lord and savior to some degree to be a Christian. Anyone who says that is not tru doesn't know what they are talking about. The whole point of being Christian is accepting Jesus as the Christ (the anointed one). Anyone could have been the Christ but Jesus was identified by those who followed and they are the ones called Chrisitan.

Also, Jesus was a Muslim? How does that work? Obviously Jesus was not a Christian because he was the Christ. Being the Christ, he could not be a follower of the Christ. Further, he and his original followers were so steeped in Jewish traditions that I don't see how they could be retroatively (600 years) labeled Muslim.

Personally, I think she is insulting both religions and followers while trying to have both. She should just be honest and claim to be agnostic but a follower of the general ideals of Christianity and Islam. Or, as was suggested, go for broke and claim to be a spiritual child of all religions past, present, and future or somehting.

 

To quote the very wise Sarah Marshall:

"And you know what? Let me tell you something about these tattoos, okay. That is Buddhist, that is Nordic, that is Hindu, that's just gibberish. They are completely conflicting ideologies, and that does not make you a citizen of the world, it makes you full of sh$t!"

 

MadMax,

Thanks for your kindwords and I really apologize for my irritating comments. I say things as I have heard them and am extremely happy for you to correct me, especially since I'm all for eliminating ignorance that religious people have towards each other.

I understand the concept of trinity better now. However, Islam would still not agree with the concept of trinity as Allah clearly states that the holy spirit is a seperate entity and Jesus is a human and no different than any of us. In Christianity, these are viewed as manifestations. But as Allah has clearly stated that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are different entities, there is no room to consider them manifestations of himself.

With regards to the useage of the word "we", this is due to the language and exactly why I prefaced my last post with "a translation is not the Quraan". In Arabic, we is used in formal settings as the singular. For example, if I alone hosted you alone at my house for dinner, a common Arabic saying is "We are honored to have received you." Another example is if you ask a favor of someone, you would say to them "Forgive us as we have tired you with our requests." This is even if I, for example, am talking to a police officer. This is exists in pre-Islamic poetry/language as well and is still commonly used today.

I'm not sure where the Quraan says that Mary is worshipped as a God, I am trying to find the verse. However, the logical explanation would be that Mary could not give birth to God unless she is God. Alternatively, if you point me to the verse, I will post the explanation of the verse, the occasion on which it was descended, and what the Prophet PBUH said regarding its meaning.

As for raining down on "Christians", it is raining down on a specific part of Jesus PBUH's ummah (people). Again, it is not accurate to use the word Christian in this case. The number ONE offense in Islam is Shirk >> which comes from the word partnership, which refers to assigning anyone the value of Allah. By that logic, it is fairly obvious that Allah would be very unhappy with those who attribute Allah's status to a man. This is the case with Muslims as well - if I were to say that Muhammad PBUH was the son of God or a manifestation of him, then it would be shirk and I would be "no better than the rebels" as the previously mentioned verse states. To put it simply, Islam considers those who followed Jesus PBUH's message and those who consider him to be God as two seperate categories. This is why the term "Christian" is confusing in this instance.

Regarding whether God begot (gr?) Jesus PBUH, the answer is that Allah did not beget Jesus PBUH according to Islam. There is an entire Sura (chapter) called Surat Maryam in the Quraan discussing this. I advise you to read it. Basically, Jesus PBUH is the son of Maryam (Mary). he was conceived through the holy spirit (the angel Gabriel saw). This was done by Gabriel breathing into Maryam's garment. There is no father, there is a mother. God willed it to be that way. Gabriel was able to do it through Allah's will. I'm not sure why this is confusing as we both believe that the creator can do anything and makign a woman pregnant is not unbelievable in that sense. It is a miracle no doubt, but the same one that we both believe in.

If you are interested, the entire story is in Chapter 19: Surat Maryam. If we did not cherish jesus PBUH there would not be an entire chapter dedicated to his mother.

I hope this was helpful too. Look forward to any questions you may have. Now I gotta go watch Lost will check back later!

 

One central belief that people here are glossing over, and may be central to many discussions, is the belief that the Muslim god of "Allah" is the same as the Christian God. There are many Christians that do not believe believe they are one and the same.

Just looking at it from a perspective of a person that is not versed in the Islamic tradition, but having read a book discussing it in small part and listening to Christians more versed in it than I, the teaching are very similar. However, the teachings of "Allah" and God diverge in key places. I won't even get into the differences myself since I I'm not knowledgeable about the Islamic teachings, but I believe that it does need to be discussed and I went the longest time thinking they were one in the same myself.

p.s. I actually heard the Muslim god of "Allah" actually either refers to or initially referred to a "moon god". I haven't read or heard much on the subject, but it shocked me because I had never heard it before.

 

I'm not well versed in either religion to say anything definitive but given that Islam and Christianity both arise from the same tradition it seems like while there are doctrinal differences the ultimate deity "God" is the same. The argument that "Allah" and the Biblical "God" are different strikes me as being along the lines of that the "God" of the New Testament isn't the same as the "God" of the Old Testament.

 

Buddhism does encompas a moral system but at its basis it is amoral in terms of what is the ultimate goal of Buddhism. Sakyamuni himself spoke about this in terms of the difficulty of proselytizing the his teachings. That many would understand the nature of what he was teaching. He advised his followers to focus on the message of compassion without immediately focussing on issues like the attainment of non-being. As Buddhism has evolved and spread it has taken on more and more of what we would regard in a Western sense of a religion as both being theistic and expounding a value system. For the Buddhism as a whole that is important but not exactly what Sakyamuni taught.

"Bodhistattva" isn't a part of what was originally Buddhism and while in the Mahayana tradition it has become very important belief in Bodhisattvas don't really matter to the philosophical basis of Buddhism. Whether Jesus is considered a Bodhisattva or not wouldn't necessarily be the basis of a being a Buddhist Christian.

The problem is if you consider enlightenment to be the same as salvation when I don't think they are the same. Again there is a problem depending on which branch of Buddhism you are looking at. In the Pure Land sect then yes enlightenment and salvation are the same as both imply something supernatural that through faith one can transcend the material world. In the Theravadan and Zen traditions though that isn't the case. Enlightenment is a simply a higher state of awareness regarding the nature of existence and doesn't lead, automatically, to a state of higher being.

As far as whether it is external or internal on the surface it seems like Buddhism talks about an internal quest for spirituality while Christianity an external quest. I think most of that has to do with the type of Buddhism and Christianity that has become popular in the West. In Christianity there is a monastic and meditative tradition that uses things very similar to many sects of Buddhism to enhance one's spirituality. I'm not very well versed in those but my understanding is that you do look inside yourself to find God. You go from the external to the internal. In the same way the Zen tradition while meditation is personal the idea is that through it you lose yourself to realize there is no separation between you and all of existence. Going from the internal to the external.

Some sects of Buddhism like Pure Land are devotional and theistic and can be said to go from the external to the internal. Under those the Buddhas are worshipped as deities and through devotion you seek a Heavenly salvation.

So you might never be able to be a Pure Land Buddhist Christian as you would have two conflicting devotions but you could certainly be a Theravadan or Zen Christian. As long as you left the idea of deity out of the Buddhist part I don't think there is a conflict between acceptance of the Four Noble Truths, following the Eightfold Path while still believing in Jesus.

Also looking at the history of Buddhism the religion has proven remarkable adaptable to other traditions it has encountered as its spread. In parts of India Hinduism and Buddhism are practically interchangeable. In China the Buddha and Bodhisattvas have been incorporated into the Chinese Pantheon, the same with Japan.

 

Its kind of too bad that Mr. Meowgi isn't here anymore. He seemed to know a lot about Buddhism and could've added a lot more to this discussion.

 

1. to be clear..i'm not offended by anything you've posted. you've posted the facts of what Islam presents to be true. thank you for that.

2. i hear ya on how Islam presents Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I get that. No problem with that. It's how Islam interprets what I believe that I have a problem with. Does that make sense? It's a slight distinction and one I'd do better sharing with you if we weren't talking over a message board....but there's a difference. The idea that I'm consciously praying to 3 gods is just wrong. That I'm worshipping 3 goes is just wrong. Perhaps my understanding of God is wrong...and the Koran suggests it is...but to take that further and rain down curses on me for being a polytheist despite my insistence in ONE God is troubling. Not deeply troubling...I'm not losing sleep! This is usally where the conversation stops on this subject...and that's fine with me unless you have more to add....just sharing my perspective.

3. The part with Mary is another misunderstanding of the Trinity within the Koran, from my viewpoint. It says at 5:116, "Then God will say: Jesus son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: "Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?"...

But no where do Christians and/or the Bible suggest that Jesus or Christians regarded Mary as a god or as a manifestation of god.

Also...you say that Mary would have to be a god to give birth to a manifestation of God.....WHY? Who wrote those rules for God? Did we give Him a copy of them in advance? I'm not comfortable boxing God up like that..and am with you fully that He absolutely has the power and ability to allow a virgin to give birth to a healthy child.

4. I have read that Surah with respect to Mary. I have a Koran on my bedside table, and read through it as I have time...which unfortunately, isn't very often right now in the evening amidst my other duties as husband and father of 2!

5. I wasn't suggesting that Muhammed would be thrilled with the idea of people attributing god status to a man...because the Jesus I understand and the early church wouldn't either. I'm only suggesting that Muhammed did employ the concept of God being soooo big..sooo powerful...that he could be described as being plural...as partnership, as you say. From my viewpoint, that's a pretty fair description of the way Christians understand God, as well.

 

I believe that Allah is the arabic word for the english word God.

One thing that I know to be the fundamental difference on a macro level is that Christians believe that Jesus was the "son" of God while Muslims believe that Jesus was a Prophet (as was Noah, Moses, Mohammad SAS). The relationship of Jesus (pbuh) and God was the same as any of the other Prophets according to Islam. Basically the notion is that God is divine and God cannot have human aspects attributed. The concept of having a son is a human one so how can one say God has a son. (Btw, I'm just explaining in a religious/philosophical sense, not preaching anything).

The Quran states:
"Say, it is Allah. (who is) the One. Allah is Absolute,
Independent. He did not beget, nor He was begotten
and there is none like unto Him."

Just a question....I'm not quite sure the definition of "son" in the bible. Is that at a physical level or is that a metaphor?

First time I've ever heard that but it's false.

 

That's sounds like the kind of justification that would lead to hunting down of the heretics to keep the doctrine pure.

I agree that she is engaging in a "have it your way" religion but whats wrong with that? Every major religion's practice and doctrine has evolved. While there are many who lay claim to defending the true faith as a whole does it destroy the religion when new doctrines arise? Is it an insult to Christianity that Protestantism arose? Is it an insult to Buddhism that Mahanaya arose?

I'm not going to fault her church for wanting to kick her out. They are certainly free to maintain doctrinal purity as they see fit but otherwise I don't see why claiming to be a Muslim Christian isn't a valid religious expression.

 

I'm just curious. I've heard in Islam there is a prophecy about a Messiah (Mahdi) what is the nature of the Messiah under Islam?

 

1. you're right about Allah, as i understand it. in fact, there were Arabic Christians calling God, "Allah" before Mohammed was born. there are Christians in the world today who call God, "Allah."

2. we don't believe that God was "with" Mary...if that's what you mean. there are a lot of different "flavors" of Christianity...but I think MOST believe that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human all at once. Complicated, to be sure.

Son of God was a term used by Caesar as well. The early church's use of the claim that he was the Son of God had a definite political purpose and impact. It wasn't to their benefit from an earthly perspective...and helps explain why a lot of them became lion food at Roman events.

i dont believe Jesus ever called himself the Son of God. He did call himself the Son of Man many times, and that too can't be understood without understanding context for it...that he was claiming to be Messiah. He was ascribed the name Emmanuel, as well...meaning "God with us." And he was called the Christ...the long awaited "annointed one."

 

Surely you jest, as Meowgi's countenance on this board displayed a clear lack of understanding of Buddhist thought.

 

1) Thanks, I think this is key to good discussion.

2) As discussed, it's logistics at work here. If we use the Bible's definitions of the Holy Spirit and the Messiah, then you are obviously not worshipping 3 gods. What we are touching on here, I think, is that the definition of Holy Spirit and Messiah are different in the two religions. I don't think Allah said that the followers of Jesus PBUH were knowingly worshipping 3 gods nor that Jesus PBUH said to do so. It is just one of those things where a small difference (identity of the Holy Spirit and the Messiah) creates a larger one (monotheism vs polytheism). In any case, at the base of it we can agree that God wouldn't punish someone who did their best to know what they know, i.e., he wouldn't punish someone who believed something wrong (whether Muslim or otherwise) because of some error/misunderstanding of the past. I don't believe that's God's nature. So basically, whoever believes they are a monotheist and have done all they can to make sure their position is correct is on good grounds IMO.

3) This part I'm not sure we disagree on. Allah will ask whether Jesus PBUH ever told people to take him and Mary as gods. There is no accusation here. If there is one thing I learned about the Qura'an it's that it applies to all time. As far as we know, there may be a religion before the day of judgement that will worship Maryam. Or, there may have been such a people for a short time who dissapeared quickly and we never heard about. Remember, the Quraan is Allah's words, he sees what we don't see and he knows what we don't know. This is definitely not directed to Christians. It is directed to Jesus PBUH and he will be questioned for his actions on the day of judgement according to Islam. Jesus PBUH preached the same message to every human.

4) A problem many people wish they had - not enough time for the internet, just enough time for the family

5) I think perhaps I may have confused you on this point. Muhammad PBUH wouldn't be the decider of whether to be thrilled or not, it would be Allah who is not thrilled. The Qura'an is not Muhammad PBUH relaying what Allah told him - it is Allah's words.

The partnership aspect with the word "we" is a normal part of the Arabic language. I can use it, my sister can use it, and Allah used it. God is great and powerful in almost all religions no doubt about that. But the "we" used in the Quran is commonplace in Arabic - I use it everyday at work. It does not ascribe partnership or plurality at all. We is used in place of "I" in Arabic when speaking formal. Importance, number, etc, is not a factor - it is only formal or non-formal.

Not sure if that last bit confused you more or cleared it up but let me know if I need to comment on it a bit more..

 

ah, that does clear it up. thanks!

 

i'm not sure, but judoka may be sarcastic here...because i thought what you thought.

 

It depends on how you see differences. If you see it as, although there are differences in the interpretation, they speak of the same God. Then yes, they can be seen as the same. However, you could also see the fundamental differences between the two definitions as automatically making them two separate Gods. I'm not sure if I'm explaining my reasoning to you sufficiently well enough.

Looking around, I found this:

http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH32-2A.htm

There is only one God, called Allah (“Al Lah” is the Arabic for the divinity, meaning “the One True God.”

Is Allah the same as the Christian God (Jehovah) as described in the Bible? There are similarities because both religions are monotheistic and also because (as we will discuss later in this chapter) Islam is, in many ways, an outgrowth of Judaism and Christianity. Apart from the fact that both Allah and Jehovah are the only God recognized by each religion, both Islam and Christianity also recognize God as the Creator of the universe; He is sovereign, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent; He has revealed His will and character through prophets, angels, and the written word; He knows the thoughts and deeds of men; and He will judge the wicked. However, there can be no doubt to even the occasional reader of the teachings of Islam and Christianity that both refer to a very different God:[7]

Allah and Jehovah are not descriptions of the same God

Jehovah (God as described in the Bible)
Trinity

Allah
Singular unity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehovah (God as described in the Bible)
Heavenly Father

Allah
Distant, not a father, no children
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehovah (God as described in the Bible)
Loves the sinners (not the sin)

Allah
“Loves not those that do wrong” (Surah 3:140)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehovah (God as described in the Bible)
“takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked” (Ezekiel 33:11)

Allah
“Allah desires to afflict them for some of their sins” (Surahs 5:49, 4:168-169, 7:179, 9:2)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehovah (God as described in the Bible)
Holy, demands complete perfection

Allah
Good deeds must outweigh ones bad deeds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehovah (God as described in the Bible)
He provided a sinless Savior, who took our sins upon Himself

Allah
Sent a messenger Mohammed, who warned of Allah’s impending judgment

Table 32- 1 : Comparing Allah and Jehovah

The above table (table 31-1) points out significant differences between Jehovah and Allah, but by far the most important contrast is the view of sin. God as depicted in the Bible loves the sinner, but hates sin (as He cannot tolerate it because of His holiness); the Qur’an teaches that Allah hates the sinners. This fact alone explains why militant Islam approves the killing of anyone not a Muslim (any infidel). Anyone who is not a Muslim is a sinner. As Allah hates the sinners, killing an infidel is doing the will of Allah.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not trying to offend anyone or get flamed, lol. These are just the differences that I've only recently seen. Also, forgive me if the actual site is not seen as credible for whatever reason. It just laid out my thoughts pretty well.

It all comes down to whether the differences automatically make the Islamic "Allah" different than God or whether you see it as two interpretations of the same God.

This is what I was referring to:

There is only one God, called Allah (“Al Lah” is the Arabic for the divinity, meaning “the One True God.” Allah was also the name of one of the gods worshiped by local pagan religions[5]). Allah's last prophet was Mohammad (pbuh[6]). Mohammad was not a god or divine in any sense, but he was a man, the final prophet, the messenger through whom Allah revealed his will. Muslims revere Mohammad, but they do not worship him. Everything and everyone depends on Allah. All Muslims, whatever their race, belong to one community: the Ummah.

Trying to be respectful here, so I hope I don't get flamed.

 

Allah has 99 known names. He has countless other names which we do not know. We call them "names" but in reality they are qualities ascribed to Him and they are all common in that they ascribe perfection to the creator.

If you are asking whether this word existed before Islam, I'm not sure, but it's possible I suppose. Important to note that God the Father in Christianity is "Elohim" (as Jesus PBUH, according to the Bible, reffered to him on the cross) which is of the same root as Allah. The word Elohim is "Allaahumma" in Arabic. It is basically the same word in sister languages. Does that make it clearer?

The word Allah basically means the one who is divine, to whom all are "enslaved". One of his many names.

Whether people used a variant of this word to worship a moon God, I haven't heard before. But it's as unimportant as someone before Jesus PBUH being named Jesus. I'm not sure if there was and not implying at all that there was because I have no idea.. I'm just saying it has no bearing on Jesus PBUH and who he was/is.

 

JusBleezy,

Honestly, as a friendly piece of advice, it is better not to use a translation of the Qura'an to make arguments like this one. Being a sinner is a state, not an identity in Islam.

Using arguments based on translations is very dangerous in that a lot gets lost. Quoting single phrases from the bible and/or Quraan is the most dangerous thing.

I'm not saying what you have posted is completely false, but I'm saying there are a lot of false assumptions in it to serve the purpose of the writer. Be careful with sources.

 

I'm not exactly asking whether the name Allah existed before Islam, it was more of a sidenote that I was not aware of until recently and I'm sure others were unaware of. Whether it has any bearing on today's usage of Allah is moot I suppose. I was more worried that many Christians and Muslims alike thought they were praying to the same God and did not know Allah referred to some ancient pagan god.

It is, however, understood that Allah simply refers to the Arabic pronunciation of God. Perhaps it is moot like you said.