MManal, man I miss this banter. Game talk is what I love. Forget the BobFinn yawns, they are just passing through. Who else wants to talk basketball this season. Now let me go after some of your comments one more time.....don't take offense because your college scouting is great! but I am after NBA game talk threads... ....game on!!!!! first... fizer has not shown me anything, yet. How can you even say that he can read an NBA defense, yet? So now he is a great passer, too. You are elevating a college scouting report to be a short version of Duncan?! Man aren't you done with the draft yet. Didn't I say in my opening post to leave trade and draft outta game talk. God there so many threads for that. MManal, don't talk to me about rookie potential. There are plenty of people on this board to do that with. You are not going to convince me Fizer can read a defense at the high post, until I see him do it in the NBA. Save the Fizer talk for other people. I want to talk about the game that we see. second: your comment: "If you are strictly on the perimeter, your just not going to win anything long term unless you have Michael Jordan." really as nothing to do with what I'm talking about or a foundation based on the 3 guards running options from wing entries. Quit thinking in terms of extremes. That is a weak argument and is meant to overly simplify to make a point. now about the p-n-r thingy... The big thing you are missing regarding this cry for Rudy to run a pick-n-roll at the elbow, is first you must get Francis to the wing with the ball in his hands to run that play. He simply is not allowed to dribble there like Stockton is. You cannot deny that Francis gets double-teamed in 3 pt land to get the ball out of his hands. There is a tendency in your assumption that you can just borrow a play from Utah to simply forget my previous sentence. If you don't want to talk about that one truth which drives our entire offense, then you are in denial about what we need to accomplish simply to get Francis to the wing, and then into attack position at the free throw line. Really there is nothing more to discuss with you unless you first understand that Francis cannot do a dribble entry into the wing. That big difference between Stockton and Francis is why the offense won't feature an elbow p-n-r. You can envision piecing together things from other teams all you want, but really what you are doing is showing your own limited playbook. You must deal with the Rockets and Francis and consider how every change effects his ability to get into attack position. To add new plays we must consider sum gains and the rippling effects stuff like allowing a defensive center to stand in the middle will have on Francis. What you see when Francis comes around high post pick for a 18 footer in the middle was our weave picks. What you also miss is the fact that that the picks coming across the lane to for Francis are only options dictated by the defense. Those picks that get Francis to the center don't come unless the defense takes away the weakside shot by Bullard/Langhi, first. Collier is not going to be part of the pick you are talking about. Why would we want to take Collier's man (a center) directly to Francis? Collier should be on the weakside. A Collier p-n-r is so weak. I'm thinking Longley on the weakside when I think of Collier. The main reason I completely disagree with you concerning the Utah p-n-r is that there are several better plays that we have in our playbook. Do you want to know how to get Francis to the free throw line with the ball: I could describe the Iverson Zipper play or our Warp-n-Woof? Getting Francis to the free throw line with the ball is far more complicated than running a two man game. But what is great is we are getting better at it. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited July 27, 2000).]
Ok I'll take Marcus Fizer out of this thread. I realize that Steve Francis got double teamed at 3 pt land last yr. Think about why that was the case though. The Rockets frontcourt offensive options were so limited, it would be stupid for teams not to. If teams try it with that kind of frequency next season, they will get burned like crazy. Can you imagine a defender leaving Langhi and trying to trap Francis at the 3 pt line? Steve will just swing the ball and bang wide open three. The Rockets added two accurate and consistent players that can hit from the perimeter in Collier and Langhi, not the streaky 3 pt garbage KT throws up. They will really open things up for Francis and allow the team to set up plays for him to attack the middle of the floor. When you have an explosive, multi faceted guard talent like Steve Francis, you absolutely MUST have him attack the middle of the floor, and the Rockets have opened things up to allow that. This is such a basic idea of NBA basketball, I cant believe we're even debating it. How about this, just wait till the season starts and you'll see how this all develops. A Collier p-n-r is so weak. I'm thinking Longley on the weakside when I think of Collier I almost gagged when I read this. Rudy T was on Fox news the day after the draft drooling over this play. He was saying something to the effect of "I want to see how teams will even try to stop that". Either you know more than Rudy T does or will just have to wait till the season starts and see how nicely that play will work. Comparing Collier's screen and roll ability to Longley's is a total and complete insult to Jason. The kind of defenses the Rockets will see next season are not going to be identical to last. This is b/c they have more options to open things up. A limited playbook would be to not try and incorporate your new players and just go with what you went with last yr. Trust me, you will see some wrinkles to the offense with Francis getting to the middle of the floor more and two man games with Francis and Collier. Also, I dont want anyone to take this debate personally or to heart. This is just a straight basketball discussion, and I dont want anyone taking it the wrong way. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net [This message has been edited by MManal (edited July 27, 2000).]
HeyPard 1. you ever coach? [lil league, high school etc] u know alot of things. I like reading them so I can look for them in the game. [Like i do with football] 2. I like what you said about the PNR with Collier. I prefer Langhi because if he gets it at the baseline . . he can and will attack the basket instead of always settling for the Jumper. If the Pick man can hit the jumper. . . that is fine but i think being able to take the pass and take it to the rack has it's advantages. I just don't wanna be like indiana . . .where it seems Miller runs a figure 8 for 20 seconds until they can get the ball to him. Rocket River Please descrive the Iverson Zipper and the Warp n Woof. ------------------
MManal, you are a great sport. Like I say, this is fun to me. I'll never take it the wrong way, glad you didn't. Remember, all this talk is predicated on not allowing the defense to take the ball out of Francis's hands. I still say you make a huge assumption that a 2 man game can even develop inside the 3 pt line. Rudy talks about a lot of plays, and tries a lot of plays, but he eventually settles on what works, and sticks with it. Any possible success of Collier running a PNR will first start with whether Francis can do a dribble entry to the wing. Yes, we do burn the teams when they double him, but exactly when do we get the chance to run a PNR if the ball is taken out of Francis's hands. My point is that there are so many other plays. And yes, getting Francis to the middle is great. I'm not debating the merits of that. I'm saying good luck trying to do that with a simple Utah PNR. There are many different options we need to proove to the defense, before they will let a PNR develop at the elbow, much less allow Francis to the free throw line. I'm not trying to dis Collier. I would love it if he could play the high post. I am dis-sing the merits of the Utah PNR, and questioning the merits of playing a two man game instead of our motion offense. Rocket River. The Zipper play starts with a triangle shape. I've never seen us run it, but if we did, it would go like this. SF in the low post, Cato in the high post. Mobley/SA with the ball on the wing. The Zipper gets its name cause of what it does to the defense. SF and Cato change positions and Cato's man must follow him. That causes a zipper effect as the two defender pass by each other. SF comes around Cato for a pass and SF can go straight to the hole if his defender got tied up by the drop-down pick by Cato. If not, Francis continues towards the middle and another pick comes across the lane to get Francis to the free throw line. At that point the play has succeeded and Francis creates from there. In short, start SF in the low post with Mobley on the wing with the ball. And get SF picks to the middle, and burn the D with alley-oops if they don't allow it. The Warp-n-Woof was installed in pre-season last year and showed its face a couple of times to mixed results. Collier can help immensely with this if he can roll like MManal says. Rogers seemed to be the only one who could run it properly. Francis is at the top of the key (can't be doubled). There are two high post players on each elbow. Francis chooses one to give him a pick into the wing. If he can, he shoots a 10 footer or drives baseline. If not, he starts receiving weave picks as the other high post player comes over. If the d misplays a pick, Francis can dive into the seam, shoot or pass to a picker for a roll-out. MManal, I just see so many more opporunities in motion offense for getting Francis into attack position than intalling a set PNR that stops everyone from moving except the 2 men running it. You need a very good PF to generate much success at that on a regular basis. And there is no guarantee they will ever let Francis keep the ball in his hands. We must install plays that ensure Francis gets the ball to create. IMO, the Utah PNR is easy to shut down with a trap, unless your entire offense is geared around it and you have a 2 man tandem.
Yes, I am assuming that the defense will try less to take the ball out of Francis's hands at such an early an stage because the Rockets will have more offensive options surrounding him. Last season, it only made sense to try and double Francis early and often at the 3 pt arc, but this season it wont be as such. Atleast thats how I think it will play out. I am not suggesting adding a Francis-Collier and just throwing everything else out. What I am saying is that this play adds more variety to the offense. I am sure we will see other new plays that Rudy experiments with, and then when they examine the tape and do percentages on the success of each play will take a core set of plays that work with the most frequency. I think there will be more of a focus on getting Francis to the middle of the floor and opening it up with the long range snipers this team will have. Whether you do that with an angled pick and roll or some other play, that needs to be the key, and Rudy I think realizes that. The whole idea of getting players like Collier and Langhi is to take off some of the pressure the defense puts on Francis which will allow him a little more freedom with the ball. That way you have more flexibility in what you run and should be able to acheive your end goal of getting Francis into the middle of the floor more often where he will be very tough to handle. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
watch the Longley comments Heyp ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
I meant it as a compliment actually. If Collier develops Longley's shot and his passing I will be very happy. I'd still put him on the weakside, though. hehe
Hey, with the zipper are they also looking to get a possible switch and get either a SF guarding Cato for an easy post up and a C guarding Shandon for an easy drive. MManal and Hey, Seriously about Longley, he can actually run a very good pick n roll, mainly cause he sets a nasty screen due to his body and actually rolls really well to seal out his defender, the other advantage of Longley is if the guard gives it up to him, he can not only not down the mid range jumper but is a sensational passer for 7fter. As a side note, here in Australia this week the national team is in camp, and the national basketball association is struggling for cash so what did big Luc do, he went out and the whole squad new training gear with his own cash. As for more plays for Steve to create, why not have more iso, which set up as he bring the ball down the floor with the other 4 busy on weak side setting picks. Another option would be to start with Shandon or Cat with the ball at the point and run Steve off picks in the low posts, stack set, similar to the way Indiana does for Reggie. Smeg ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
Smeggy, Great!!! I got one Chat person talking plays....I had to mention Longley eh! the zipper First, this is an Iverson play. I've never seen us run it. When I wrote "SF", I meant Steve Francis, not Small Forward. The zipper would put a guard on Cato, if the D switched. That's why I say there is alley-oop potential to it. They can't switch. regarding the ISO for Francis They still doubled that way out front. Placing 4 men over to weakside, doesn't really force the defense to not double. Hell, I've seen teams follow Francis from side to side with two defenders, simply ignoring the picker. Your last option is actually closer to describing our plays for Shandon. While Francis has the defense pinned down, Anderson finds a low post position, especially when he can overpower his defender. That is classic flexing in a 4 out 1 set. Shandon doesn't really need much picking when Francis is commanding a double. To put Francis in the role of fighting through a bunch of picks to receive low post position, you are walking towards the land of "Francis is not a PG". ugh!!! However, yes, I'd do it some, except for the fact that Anderson gets lost. If you mean to say, run him through some picks to give him an entry pass to start the offense from there....yep, I agree, but don't forget about the 24-sec clock. You need to start that picking immediately.
yeah picks at the start, have picks at the 2 low blocks and Cat and Shandon at the top in a normal 2 guard front, and have Steve swinging through, looking to curl round the second screen if the defender follows him or pop to the baseline corner for a three if the defender goes above the screen, another option is he could catch it on the wing and the guy you set the last pick could move up and set another for the pick n roll. Also this swinger type play is also very good for feeding the post, especially if the player setting the first screen rolls to the middle. Smeg PS I can send you the play if you have that free basketball playbook software, which is great to use. ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
what playbook software. I've seen only college and HS stuff on the internet. Much of that doesn't translate at all to the NBA because of the 24-sec clock. I actually can't find much at all about NBA offenses except that Shockwave plays that just discuss signature plays, not offensive systems. It really sounds like you are describing Francis as SG. Watch out for what you wish for. All I would do is use the early picks to get him to the wing to start the offense, but that wouldn't BE the offense.
stupid question time, why do we need to specify PG or SG, especially with the team we have and limited number of opposition teams that play full court, why does it matter. the software i was talking about allows you to draw up your own plays, the link is http://www.jes-soft.com/playbook/ maybe then we could find a way to put them on bbs, cause written discussion of plays is fairly tough. ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
I remember someone mentioning something about diagramming some of the plays with shockwave or flash. Did this ever happen? Anyone have a link? I love watching the Rockets play, but if I understood what to look for, it would probably increase my enjoyment of the game.
Think about it...if Francis doesn't do the dribbling and passing....GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE and every other Grizzlie fan would hound us endlessly about Steve should have stayed cause he's not even playing PG in Houston. Don't make me call you the devil!
When the Rockets won their rings in the mid-90s, they had Dream in the low post shooting or passing out to the perimeter shooters depending on what the defense decided to give up. Now that the Rockets have gone to an offensive system with play initiated on the perimeter, there is a desire here for a dominant low post player. If the Rockets obtained someone who fit that description, it would force Francis and the other guards to be spot shooters on the 3 point line as in days gone by. Dream controlled the ball and tempo when he was the best player on the team. Francis should have that same power to control the ball and allow his teammates to feed off the opportunities he creates. Mango ------------------ 1. Put new topics in the proper forum 2. Use clear wording for new threads 3. No duplicate threads 4. Conduct yourself as an adult The Serious Police are watching Donate Blood or be assimilated! [This message has been edited by Mango (edited July 27, 2000).]
I agree with HP on the part about the shooting guard thing. I am very against setting screens to make Francis into a scoring machine. I want Francis to develop into a multi-faceted PG and pulling the ball out his hands thus not letting him initiate the offense will not allow this. If the picks help Francis to receive the ball in a favorable position to create the necessary room for him to get into the middle of the floor and create for his teammates then I am all for it. However, I do not want him to become a scorer off the ball. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH, can't have both I didn't mean turning him into a Sg, sure he should bring the ball down and intitiate the offense, but we should use our whatever advantage we have, as best we can, and that includes Steve's speed which need utilised both with and without the ball, bring it on more back picks and cuts for Steve and some big Alley-Oop dunks, Maybe something like this, Steve starts the offense at the pt and pass to Cat on the wing, Cato or Dream move up to the wing to run a pick and roll with Cat, as this is starting Shandon and Langhi set a double UP screen on Steve player at the foul line, and Steve's times his back cut perfect as Cat comes off the Dream screen and KABOOM, poster time baby and the Crowd goes WILD. Smeg ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
The threat of Francis scoring is enough. I want him to develop into a smart point guard. Take what the defense gives him, as far as moving the ball around, finding the open man, and becoming a top not POINT GUARD. Then, if the defense leaves him open, which won't be often, simply burn them. It'll lengthen his career by not having to bump down low so much, and make his teammates happy. If the defense leaves him open, or doesn't watch him carefully (which if we get that 2nd star next to him that plays in the front court (possibly in 01-02 a guy like Rashard Lewis would work, that means not only more assists for him, but more scoring chances well.) Then of course, if he worries less about scoring, then he can focus more on stopping the other team from scoring, and becoming a defensive asset (Shandon will appreciate it ). Thus, we become a more complete team, and a happier team, with even more chemistry. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
