I agree with Mr. Space city. I've had the pleasure of watching Magic, Bird, and Jordan play. I also had the pleasure of watching Kobe play against the Pistons in the Finals. If people keep bringing up Jordan's game 6 against Seattle then lets bring up Kobe's entire series against the Pistons and the Celtics in '08. Btw, Kobe is a great player, but personally, I think him and Lebron are pretty much up for grabs when it comes to the best player in the league right now. The only issue I have is that Kobe gets way too much credit for his team's success and his teammates hardly get any. I stongly believe Gasol will be a future HOF.
The bolded comments are relevant, I think, because it goes to show the double standard for the 2 players. Simply, people don't like Kobe and like MJ, so I think quite often the truth is clouded by these biases when comparing the 2. I understand that MJ played poorly in a game that wasn't do-or-die, and that Kobe's performance in game 7 is not the same. But what about Kobe's game 6? He was facing elimination, just as if it was Game 7, and Kobe had one of the greatest quarters in Finals history as part of a dominant, complete performance that saved his team's season. Why does one great performance in a do-or-die game get swept under the rug because it was followed by a bad performance in another? If they were reversed, and he played well in game 7, would that mean he was suddenly better than MJ, and one of the greatest Finals MVPs ever? I don't think so, but that seems to be what many are saying. I think, regardless of the order, Kobe played very well and very poorly in 2 games he had to win to get another ring. The important thing is that he won both, and his team got the ring. If he had played terribly throughout all 7 games, the hate would be justified, but one really bad game out of 7 in an NBA Finals is pretty common, even for the greatest player ever.
now you're being selective with your argument. kobe had a great 3rd quarter but still struggled to close out the game down the stretch. by using that logic why overlook jordans game 5 vs the sonics to close out the series where he got 26 points shooting 50%? see how selective you're being? and like i have already stated... lets face it, kobe has a history of struggling in the finals while jordan has a history of great finals performances. kobe is a great player. nobody is trying to discredit him but then people like you try to find a similarity between kobe and jordan by using games that are not of the same magnitude.
he didn't play terribly but he is the first finals mvp in nba history to shoot under 50% for every game.
It looked to me like the Celtics were having trouble closing out games...Kobe was compensating for a bad shooting game by getting to the line and dominating a smaller team on the boards...which is what great players do. If you don't have you're shooting touch, find some other way to make an impact on your team's success...and Kobe undeniably had a huge impact on the outcome of all 4 Lakers victories....including leading his team back from a 13-point 2nd-half deficit and closing it out at the line in the 4th quarter. My point was all Finals games are more-or-less the same, and so to me, having a great Game 7 and a weak Game 6 (or 5, 4, 3...), or vice versa, doesn't really matter. Great players have off nights, but if you win, it doesn't matter. MJ had some, Kobe has had some, but it sounds like you are saying MJ struggling in a blowout Game 6 is somehow far superior to Kobe struggling in a close Game 7. To me, it's kind of a wash. As I said, to me, Kobe can never claim to be better than MJ, even if he wins 7 rings, because Pierce whipped him in 08. I just don't remember people whining about Jordan's bad performance in 96 the same way they are whining about Kobe's yesterday. Maybe it's just that the internet has made me more aware of the volume of hate, but I've always felt a great majority of NBA fans dislike Kobe and don't give him his due, whereas Jordan is some kind of infallible diety that is beyond any criticism. I just don't get it. They were both A-holes, but they were both winners. MJ was just a little better.
How do people still compare Kobe to MJ. The last time I checked, Jordan won all of his finals series. Kobe could have easily been 4-3 in the finals. Look Kobe is great, but his last game shows why he wasn't able to win all of his 7 trips to the finals. By the way, game 6 and game 7 are two completely ball games, one is a do or die situation. The pressure is greater in game 7 versus a game 6, especially if the team is already up in the series heading into game 6. Many players have bad games 6, especially when there team is up, it is sometimes human nature to get complacent. Kobe damn near cost LA the win in the last game. Also take a look at how Jordan wound up getting 7 assists in that game 6 against the Sonics. Now I know you will try to talk about Kobe's 15 rebounds, but with all of those misses, I could have gotten double digit rebounds. Also, put in the hand-checking rule back then and Jordan could have easily had 10 more fts. in that game 6. Again this isn't the first time that Kobe choked in the finals, there are a couple of other matchups where he choked, which cost him championship trophies. Again Kobe is a great player but not on Jordan's level.
he did that for 1 game. again you're only bringing up 1 game while also ignoring the poor shooting slump he had in the 4th leading up to game 7 and the turnovers. now you're putting words in my mouth. you're just comparing box score stats but overlooking that the game was already out of reach for he sonics while kobe's game 7 came down to the wire. the sonics lost every quarter of that game. down the stretch the bulls held on to the ball to milk the clock and just chucked bad shots. they had a 14 point lead mid-way through the 4th i dont remember jordan having as many poor finals performances as kobe either. nobody is trying to discredit kobe but kobe has a more poor finals performances under his belt compared to jordan. the difference is jordan had one finals performance compared to his standards yet kobe just reinforces the criticism that he performances poorly in the finals. but even tho kobe struggles he finds ways to win and contribute despite his shot not falling which is admirable. the only criticism i have on kobe is his fans that over hype him and overrate him to an insane degree while bashing his teammates and trying to bash the legacy of other great players. the stem for most of the hate comes from his dumb stans. i was watching the game at the bar and had a great conversation with a REAL LAKERS fan (dude had an original magic johnson jersey with the letters peeling off) and even he said he understands the hate because lakers/kobe fans take things to far. but i will admit jordan fans take it far as well but not to the extremes as kobe fans. as i've said before people just need to let kobe be kobe and stop always comparing him to jordan. kobe is a great player and instead of constantly peeping him with a microscope scratching and clawing to find similarities and comparisons, just enjoy the privilege to watch one of the greatest players in nba history. i'll just leave it at that. peace.
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I've made this argument here before, but here it goes again... While Kobe is incredibly proficient and prolific, he's not one of the greatest in my mind because he has not advanced the game or his position on the court or in the larger culture. Did he change how people thought about dunking like Dr. J did? Did he reinvent his position like Magic or Dream? Was he ubiquitous like Jordan? did he help change the image of the NBA like Bird? Did he make an impact off the court like Kareem and Russell? Did he force the NBA to extend the 3 point line like Wilt made them widen the lane? Kobe is a craftsman, not an inventor. He's studied and copied moves from those that came before, but has he invented a move? Is there a signature Kobe move? No. He does a lot well but everything has been done before and will be done after. His game is more evolution than revolution. I think to be considered one of the greatest, you have to not only be a great player, but do something that improves the game or its image. If you're going to draw imaginary lines between the top 20 players in history, I think that's a decent starting point.
Are you saying couldn't getting out of conference is better? I respect MJ winning 6 rings. But it also means he failed short in all other seasons. Losing in finals isn't much better, but definitely not worse.
Why is he a better passer? because he averages more assists? Don't you know that offense produces statistics? Is kobe just a ballhog because he doesn't always average high assist, is lebron a great teammate and unselfish player because of his 7+ assists a game? Was Allen Iverson who also averaged that many assists as lebron an unselfish player because of his stats? Is Lebron a better passes than MJ? Mj averaged over 8 assists one season, but never above 7 in a phil jackson triangle. Actually no player has averaged more than 7 assists in phil jackson's offense...maybe, just maybe, its not that players became worse passers, or they just didn't pass that year, but the offense the equal opportunity offense isn't as much drive and kick so on which would inflate the assists. So going by face value on stats when there are too many determining factors. Nonetheless, Lebron is a solid and capable and crafty passer, but to say he is the better passer with such certainty is a flawed statement as Kobe time and time again has become somewhat of an underrated passer but he is incredibly capable and has showed a lot of skill and craft with passing, yet his role as he even says is more of a striker on this team where lebron is the point forward, so your going to see more of it there with his role and offense.
Kobe fills a much needed void for the NBA during this period of time when it is going through a lot of financial struggles. He is talented, but more importantly, he is flashy and polarizing. It is in the league's best interest to see him succeed, because it keeps him & the Lakers (far and away the most popular franchise) in the spotlight. Now, whether they are manufacturing or influencing results to make this happen is a much bolder statement. It is difficult to watch some important games and not at least consider the possibility. It is also interesting that when Kobe & the Lakers were finally going through tough times in 2005 (as all teams must, due to the cyclical nature of free agency), they were given a most unexpected boost by getting a top PF for nothing. Obviously this had a pretty big effect on the NBA spectrum, certainly to Stern's great relief given the dud run of Finals participants subsequent to the threepeat. Talent wise, Kobe is nowhere near the greatest. Marketing/following-wise, he may be second only to MJ. He is a manufactured superstar in what is becoming a manufactured era for the NBA and the world as a whole.
?? it's a 9 pt game entering the 4th and you call it as a game that "was already out of hand" were the lakers not down by more than that yesterday?? how close did the sonics cut that lead in the 4th? let's face it, MJ had the best rebounder in modern nba history on his team with rodman, scottie pippen is an all time defender, and ron harper > derek fisher, not to mention a player like toni kukoc/steve kerr off the bench........ give kobe credit, he diddnt have it yesterday and sucked it up and said "ok i will trust my teammates to get the job done" and he for the most part stopped taking crazy shots in the 4th quarter....Jordan would've never done that. peopel have short memories.....what did MJ shoot in the game clinching win vs Utah in 98? 15-35! what about the 97 clining win vs utah? 15-35 again!96 vs the sonics....5-19! that's 3 poor to horrdenous shooting games in clinching situations, i'm not taking sides, just saying just cause kobe shot poorly doesnt mean he's not jordan cause he's done the same thing in big games.....joradan passed it to kerr, kobe passed it to artest.
15 for 35 is better than Kobe's shooting over these entire Finals, and in fact is better than his career average shooting for all Finals. 6 for 24 is HISTORICALLY bad. This would have gone down as the biggest Finals choke of all time (perhaps 2nd to John Starks, but at least he wasn't expected to be great) had Kobe not been bailed out by his teammates again.
the sonics were down 14 (77-63) with 6:30 left in the 4th. it was 84-68 with 2:44 left in he game. you're talking about a guy who has repeadedy giving pops to plays that dont get thier repsect form the bulsl teams but lets not act like kobe has had the benefit of one of he most skilled power forwards in the game and 2 7 footers in the paint as well, a DPOY ron artest who came up big the final games, and a god bench player in lamar odom who is capable of 15/15 games off the bench as well. i done nothing but gave credit to kobe when it was warranted. you mean in 98 when pippen left the game with a back injury while finishing the game with 8 points? whie jordan exploded and finishing the game with 45 points while getting a clutch steal on karl malone and drilling a game winner o win the game? jordan shot 42% to beat the jazz in 97 but the entire team shot 38% he finished the game with 39 points and had 11 in the 4th and made a clutch pass to steve kerr. wtf
