Can we finally put to rest that the Gasol/Brown trade was 1 sided

You call BS. Really. Go look it up. Oh I forgot you don't look things up.

Both were starting roles, Mr. Dense. The grizzlies plan all along was to have Thabeet be a starter alongside of Gasol.

But Thabeet coming in needed work to become that starter.

Again, this is icehouse's thought process: I am right because Sampson and Hakeem started from day one. Thabeet didn't start in his career so the grizzlies, either a) drafted a bench player (fail) or B) didn't believe in Gasol. Whatever it was, Icehouse says to himself, I win.

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

When did Pau Gasol become a superstar. He probably the best second option in the league, and that's as far as I will go. He belongs in the category of players like Chris Bosh, NOT franchise players like D-Will, KG, even Ray Allen.

It's not like he was putting up monster in numbers in Memphis either, at the time he was just a very solid 19-8 PF and nothing more.

 

You do realize that I am not arguing about whether it was the rockets plan to have hakeem and sampson play together right?

What I am trying to explain to you is that this point doesn't justify your argument that the grizzlies didn't know about Marc beforehand. If you could please explain to me how you are making this leap, like I was 3 years old, it'd be much appreciated.

The other question I'd like answered is this: if I am understanding you correctly, as it involves the Pau trade, you seem to want to dismiss the most basic accepted absolute in professional sports: that young players over time will improve. You do this by saying that Pau was better than anything the grizzlies got in return for his services, while dismissing or disregarding what every gm and most causal fans know about young players(that they improve over time).

You are in effect saying that the grizzlies made the Pau deal knowing that what they got in return was static.

Question, do you believe that the grizzlies made the pau deal assuming that marc would not improve at all?

 

I'll agree that Gasol was not a superstar. But he was a star player that was getting his teams to the postseason.

 

Of course you aren't, because that basic fact makes that comparison not relevant.

It's not that complex. If the Grizz thought they had their answer at C then they would not have spent another top pick on a C....to play C. Basketball teams don't do this. Bringing up a situation where the Rockets drafted a dude with the plans to play them at different positions is silly. Most people here seem to be able to grasp this besides you, so maybe you are just 3.

Again, I would love to see some examples of GM's using high picks to draft guys at certain spots when they are satisfied with who they have at that spot and believe whoever they have at that spot will improve and is the answer at that position. If you are expecting your young player to improve then you don't draft a guy who plays the same position. And the only way any of this matters in the case of the Grizz is because you are touting him as some top prospect, yet signs show the Grizz didn't even feel that way once they got him.

I am in effect saying if you believe in what you have at C, or SG, or whatever position, then you aren't spending a top pick on someone who plays the same position. It's not that complex and your comprehension skills can't be that poor.

 

Good for you Icehouse to stop responding to nonsense. I was looking at Grizzlies board trying to find Grizzlies fan reactions to Pau Gasol trade and how good of prospect Marc really was at the time. The board did not date back far enough for me to see, but I did find this.

http://boards.grizzliesonline.com/index.php?showtopic=5947&view=findpost&p=200730

This poster said general consensus with posters at time of trade was Marc was going to be Darko’s backup. DARKO. I am telling you, I remember Marc really starting to show promise AFTER time of trade and particularly during summer Olympics. And even then, as with most overseas players, it was questionable how well his game would translate to NBA.

Also, while looking through there, there is a poster there who says VERY similar things to Poster “What.” Talks much about Rockets and Hakeem. I am 99.9% sure this poster is him. He will lie and deny, but trust me, I have good woman’s instinct. So here is post from March 2009 where he did not even see Marc as their franchise center. He thought DeJuan Blair would be better option LOL.

http://boards.grizzliesonline.com/index.php?showtopic=5384

Oh, and here is another hilarious thread I found from this same poster, just for a laugh. About picking Jordan Hill over Blake Griffin if Grizzlies get #1. LOL.

http://boards.grizzliesonline.com/index.php?showtopic=5091

Besides stupidity of picking Hill over Griffin, here are some quotes about Jordan Hill’s potential:

He actually compared JORDAN HILL and then, as a lesser insult but still bad, CHRIS BOSH to Hakeem. He should be banned from this site for ever making this blasphemous comparison. It won’t happen, but at very least we know to never take this guy seriously.

Just because Grizzlies fans are happy with current state of Grizzlies DESPITE stupid trade does not make trade any less stupid!

 

Okay, lets break this down icehouse. It was your desire to keep the trade as a separate transaction from what happened furthur down the line: (ie dismissing what gasol is doing now). You and I both know that the grizzlies never assumed that what they got in the pau deal was a finished product, they knew, the lakers also knew, that those players would improve for the grizzlies. Correct or not correct? So, I'll ask you again, is it your claim that the grizzlies made the deal assuming that the players they got would not improve? If you say that it is your claim: then you are in effect dismissing a basic premise in sports and if you say that they did know they would improve then you except the fact that the trade for a time HAD to be unequal.

Everything else, namely the Thabeet draft pick, is irrelevant to the deal in hand.

 

Dragongirl:

Very perceptive. And, sure, I'll be happy to tell you that in fact you right, what, is also Kevin B. Moses on that other board.

However, if you had read the content of the threads like you had picking up on the similarities of posting styles, you'd realize that the Gasol experiment thread was about Hollins' and the grizzlies insistence to feed gasol in the post. Now, I ask you, doesn't the fact that the grizzlies were running the offense through gasol, speak more about how THEY felt about him. That they thought he were a weapon rather than a liability. Particularly given the fact that they were doing this instead of running plays for Rudy Gay, as my post made clear.

The thread was about how to get Rudy Gay and OJ to play togther better, which, if you were a grizzlies fan, you'd know that this was and is still a concern, so much so that Hollins finally had to move OJ to the bench.


As for the blake griffin thread. If you read any amount of my posts you'll know that by the draft I was lambasting the guy as a bust.

http://boards.grizzliesonline.com/index.php?showtopic=6086&hl=

AS for the trade of gasol for pau: read this:
http://boards.grizzliesonline.com/index.php?showtopic=4878&hl=

 

Lambasting Jordan Hill that is.

 

I haven't been following along in this thread, but are people really still arguing it was a bad trade? Did someone really say we can't say it was a fair trade because the Grizzlies made good draft choices?

Wow. I'm glad I stayed away.

 

If Team A traded a lottery pick to Team B for a second round pick straight up, that would be a stupid move. It doesn't matter if Team B then used that lotto pick to get a bust and Team A got a gem in the second round. The trade would still be terrible.

 

Grizzlies did not think at time of trade Marc was their franchise center. Marc was questionable prospect at the time of the trade and your fellow Grizzlies fan confirmed this by saying most people thought Marc would be Darko’s backup.

Grizzlies also did not think after year of having Marc he was their future either. Icehouse proved this by showing how they drafted Thabeet with #2. You cannot tell me their plan was to play Thabeet at center and Marc at PF. NOTHING about Marc’s game says power forward, he is much too slow. They were thinking Thabeet’s ceiling was higher than Marc’s and eventually he would replace Marc. They did not use#2 pick on someone they saw as long-term backup.

So in the end, Grizzlies were lucky Marc turned out so well, because I assure you this was not their thinking at time of trade and even year after. Marc’s development made trade look much better, because Arthur and Vasquez is not enough return for Pau.

I am happy for you that your team is succeeding, but I do think you are spinning trade differently in hindsight. And also being very condescending to Rockets fans with your underhanded comments about, “Enjoy your mediocrity.”

And the example I gave of stupid thread you wrote was only one of many. I frankly cannot take anyone seriously when they throw around crazy comparisons to all-time great like Hakeem.

I am done, like Icehouse.

 

Well, I don't argue with females anyway. That's always a losing battle.

 

OK -- how about using what actually happened and not a ridiculous hypothetical?

It's still a bad trade because most people didn't realize how good Marc Gasol would be? So instead of giving credit to Memphis for seeing the potential, we all assume they blindly guessed and got it right? Sure that seems fair?

The Grizzlies received Marc Gasol, Kwame Brown, Crittenton, and two first round picks (Darrel Arthur & Vasquez).

I know you're smart enough for me not to have to explain the stupidity of arguing that we shouldn't factor in who the Grizzlies drafted with those picks.

If Daryl Morey pulled off the same deal, Clutch would have to shut down the site for an hour because of the number of Morey .gifs people would post in the "NEVER DOUBT MOREY AGAIN!!!" thread. Give credit where credit is due.

Good trade, Memphis. I'm sorry for doubting it.. I was wrong, you were right.

 

That's the thing. The Grizz were so impressed with his potential that they spent a high pick on another C just a year later. That doesn't seem like a team that is seeing the potential in their player.

As far as the rest of your post, Easy gave a perfect example of why you value a trade based on what was received at that time. For example, I'm not going to conclude that the T-Wolves got raped for KG because Jefferson got hurt and they blew their #6 pick on a redundant PG (these things actually happened). I'll judge it based on what they actually received, which at the time was a top prospect, a lotto pick, a very late draft pick, cap space (more space than the Grizz got for Gasol) and some throw in players.

 

I think it is hard for people to believe Grizzlies front office knew they had a hidden treasure in Marc when their scouting is so bad they can’t even choose someone good with a #2 pick. A #2 pick, which it looks like they intended to take over the starting position from their supposed hidden treasure. Don’t forget giving up another treasure in Kyle Lowry for what turned into DeMarre Carroll.

I think that is the reason when Morey does something like this it seems more credible. Morey is known for finding guys like Landry and Bud in second round. Finding Brooks with late first rounder. Finding a treasure in Kyle Lowry. You cannot blame people for thinking Grizzlies are not the best evaluators of talent when they waste #2 picks and give away great talent in Lowry for pick they choose bust like Carroll with.

Just giving you a perspective on a situation you find unfair.

 

Hmm, so what did what, I mean Kevin B. Moses, have to say about Gasol in 2009?

LMAO!!

 

And then they thought so much of marc gasol that they traded Thabeet away a little over a year later and are now about to sign him to a huge deal.

Point is: thabeet drafting cannot represent their thoughts on marc gasol at the time that they made the trade, to view this as their thoughts is plain stupid, simply because thabeet's drafting came a year later.

If I said to you Thabeet being traded to the the rockets proves that they thought gasol was total package at center the time that they made the pau trade, what would you say? Does it prove it? Why not?

If you come to the conclusion, like you should, that this is ridiculous, maybe you can see why somebody might think your logic is a little off for using thabeets drafting (something that happened over a year later) as proof of what their thought about the player Marc was when they traded for him.

By that logic, again, I can say that the fact that they traded thabeet means that they knew all along that Marc was going to be a great player.

Here is what they knew icehouse: they knew that Marc was young, that he was going to improve and that he was already proving himself in europe and they decided that it was a good bet to ask for him in the trade to rebuild the team with. They also knew that they would have a ton of cap space to sign a great free agent and they knew that they would have 2 first rounders that they hoped would pan out. 1 of them did, Darrell Arthur.

The grizzlies KNEW what they were getting and they thought it was a far bet that they would come out will a better team in the end.

If you don't get this, I'm through in the thread.

 

What,

Out of curiosity, do you think McGrady's trade to NY by Morey was a wise decision?

Also, in 1997, do you think it was a good decision for Boston to tank so they'd have a 36% at getting the #1 draft pick?

 

No, he didn't. Easy gave an irrelevant example that has nothing to do with the trade at hand. The fact you aren't counting WHO the Grizzlies drafted with those picks is flat out stupid. I'm sorry you can't see that.

DG: I understand your point. Some people think, "wow the Grizzlies were so stupid before, they must've gotten lucky to be right once and don't deserve credit!" I just won't accept that logic. what says they drafted Thabeet to pair with Gasol -- I don't know if that's true or not, but I'd like to trust a fan of the actual team I'm arguing about.

That said, Pau Gasol led Memphis to exactly 0 playoff wins. They decided to rebuild by trading Pau (and Shane) for young players + picks. Three years later, they WIN their first ever playoff SERIES. Not just a game, but a series. Now they have a shot to advance to the WCF. And yet people still say it was a bad trade to rebuild like that?

I was completely against the trade at the time it happened -- is Memphis stupid? Now I look like the stupid one.. great trade.