No chance. Even getting out of the first round would be a chore, considering the competition in the West (possible 6th seeds: Minnesota; Portland).
And you are forgetting that Horry's Rockets rings are 6 years old. He is a shadow of whatever D he had even then. Without Shaq in the paint, there would be no playoffs for the Lakers. Just read the overwhelming consensus in this thread.
Gater-Fine, the Lakers D is atrocious. Now, tell me which defense you consider to be the best. I know there are 28 other defenses you'll name ahead of the Lakers, but try to narrow it down to about 5.
kr8 - I never said the Lakers' defense was "atrocious". What I specifically intended to do was: 1) Agree with the majority of posters in this thread that the Lakers are not 3peat locks without Shaq. 2) Express my opinion that Robert Horry and Samaki Walker are (at best) adequate on the ball defenders and that a very large measure of their success (read Lakers succcess) is attributal to the fact that there is a 7'2" mountain standing behind them when they take risks. Which they regularly do because they can. Given that this is purely my "opinion" as an observer (albeit one with League Pass), I attempted to provide some reasonable statistical measure to back up the opinion. Since the Lakers started their incredible championship run last year on April 1, 2001 the current time period seemed appropriate. (Hence the mention of the recent Laker losses to NJ & BOS - quality EC teams). IMO, there are at least 3 kinds of defense - on the ball / man to man, strong side - off the ball and weakside - off the ball. I maintain to you that the Lakers as a team (and Horry and Walker as individuals) are only adequate on the ball defenders with average team speed. Todays version of Robert Horry has been oft injured, waits until the playoffs to bring his "A" game, gets alot of blocks and steals as an off the ball defender (again benefitting from Shaq's presence) and will be 32 yo at the start of next season (3 years younger than Glen Rice). Horry's best years are behind him. Naming 5 defensive teams opens a can of worms where we'll both be running to the stats sheets to prove our "opinions". How about if we both agree that the Spurs overall are an above average defensive team? The Spurs let Walker walk and kept Malik Rose at 6'7" to backup Robinson and Duncan. They have/had enough defense without Walker to keep Danny Ferry!! And they added Cherokee Parks in Walker's absence. Since we have such a vastly differing opinion as to Robert Horry as an on the ball defender and since all of what is said by either of us is opinion and not a scientifically verifiable fact, let's agree to start another thread and see what other posters have to say on this topic. I propose the thread be titled something like "Horry - good on the ball defender or beneficiary of Shaq inside?"
NOt a chance. Lakers sans Kobe, but with a serviceable SG (let's say sprewell or Bonzi) may be able to win it though. But, no Shaq, no championship.
For one thing, I NEVER said the Lakers would 3-peat without Shaq. I merely stated that they wouldn't go to $hit because they can play defense. You have League Pass, I have League Pass, what's the deal? I agree the Spurs are one of the top defensive teams. I just find it odd that despite LA arguably being the #1 defense, you seem to criticize their defense at every chance. Regardless of what we think of Horry, LA's defense is still very superior. Can we agree on that?
Kidrock8 Shaq is so dominant, that his offensive game carrys him on D. How many guys in the league, after banging with shaq for 3 quarters, have something left in the tank for offense? I've seen him wear out 2-3 guys in a single game. The Lakers D is quite similar to the defense houston used to play... overplay your man and send him right into shaq if you get beat. Sending them to Samaki Walker just isn't quite the same, and their defensive scheme, in my opinion, won't work without him. Horry is just as skilled as ever, but lets just say he's not guy everyone fears when they drive into the lane.
I think the exact opposite. I don't think he has many other skills EXCEPT for help defense, and the decent man-to-man D. He hits the occasional 3 pt shot, but he rarely attacks the basket, with or without the ball. You are right in the sense that Shaq does wear his man out, but that doesn't particularly make him a good defender. The Lakers do "overplay" the perimeter, but they have more good perimeter man-to-man defenders than the Rockets ever had. The Rockets had Elie, Horry, and MAYBE Drexler. The Lakers have Fisher, Hunter, Fox, Kobe, and Horry. All five guys play tough D, especially Fisher, Hunter and Fox. Kobe can be the best perimeter defender in the NBA, when he feels like it. If he ever plays defense 110%, he will be defensive POY a few times before he quits.
kidrock8 - I was almost ready to part ways in this disagreement until Rick Fox got annointed to the status of a good on the ball defender. Your exact quote was: "All five guys play tough D, especially Fisher, Hunter and Fox." The Lakers end the season with 5 straight games against playoff bound teams. Pick as many as you want...all 5 for all I care. I'll tape each and every one if necessary. I will provide minute by minute documentation. The grading criteria is as follows: 1) Everytime Fox (or Horry if you prefer), keeps his man from scoring once the offensive player initiates an offensive move, you get a point. (I define stopping the guarded player as forcing a missed shot, getting a steal or creating a turnover from the defended player, or blocking the defended players shot). 2) Evertime Shaq is a factor in stopping Fox (or Horry's man) once they break down Fox (or Horry) or the assigned offensive player scores (free throws included) - I get a point. 3) Our scoring applies only to half-court sets and does not apply to transition D situations werein Fox may get matched with Rasheed Wallace or Horry with Stockton. Let me know if you're up for the challenge. The Lakers host the Jazz tomorrow and Kirilenko will be a good test since he moves well without the ball.
yes, maybe but on the ball defenders, even good ones, will get burned by a semi-intelligent team without shaq or dream or whomever in the middle to erase mistakes. I go back to my statement... Shaq IS their interior defense. I agree with you that Horry's best assets are on D, but he is by no means a feared shotblocker. Not b/c he can't, but b/c of his inconsistancy (don't they make a powder for that?) Teams show up.... look at who's jumping the ball and scream WEEEEEE Shaq's not here! If Horry shows up that day he'll make them think twice by the end of the game... but their defense just is not even the same without the bigow my kidneys hurt too . It's unfair put Kobe in the position to lead this team into the playoffs, b/c the Lakers were built around Shaq, not Kobe. Kobe would need a second scorer or fierce rebounder/defender like Jordan had.
Geez, we're criticizing Shaq's D now? How many times did we see him swat Hakeem and Quitten's shot in 97'? It was embarassing how many times he blocked Dream's shot.
wow, i can't believe some people are actually questioning horry's d. if you guys actually watched the second boston/laker game this season you would have seen horry shut walker down for the first three quarters. just owned him up and down the floor. tim duncan is still having nightmares of robert horry shutting him down in the playoffs. horry isn't always the most consistent player on a game to game basis, but he is like clockwork when it comes to big games and when it comes to clutch situations. he always delivers, whether it is with key defense, a nice pass, or a heartbreaking 3 to stop an opposing team's run or to start a laker run. horry is an incredible player, and karl malone (arguable the greatest powerforward in nba history) wishes he had even a fraction of horry's clutch plays in the playoffs.
It was the entire Laker team that stopped Duncan in the playoffs. Horry had his spectacular moments as always. Walker shoots 36% from the field on everyone that's a horrible % for a power forward especially as your second option on offense If Paul Pierce wasn't having an MVP year, Boston would have a really good draft pick I don't doubt Horry's abilities, I doubt his consistancy. Even so, without Shaq, the Lakers no longer own the paint, and will be squished.
Lakers cant do sh** without Shaq....Nuff said....Sorry Kobe fans but with out Shaq....Kobe is um...Penny Hardaway...Aight...before you Kobe fans slam me for that...I do think Kobe has hell of game...I just don't think he could put the team on his back and take them to the finals himself.....
BigTwo is right, before Kobe came along Penny was the next Jordan, and he had a game and dominated the same way Kobe did, and after Shaq left Orlando hung around and made the playoffs but were pretty much a fringe playoff team. That's what the Lakers would be. Horry is a solid ROLE player. Every team needs a great role player, but Horry is a great player. Horry is pretty much a Michael Cooper or Ron Harper type. They compliment the parts of a championship team, but put them on a non-title contender and they're lost.
There is no comparison b/t Penny and Kobe. Penny is a wuss who can't handle pressure. Kobe is a money player in the clutch. I agree that Kobe needs Shaq to win a title, but there aren't many 1-man teams anymore.
Horry was not the only defender guarding Wallace. Since you obviously got this information from the NBC announcers early in the 3rd period, you are also aware of how much the announcers were imploring Sheed to go inside as he is only a 36% 3pt shooter. To give Horry (or Walker or O'Neall) credit for a mediocre 3pt shooter missing wide open 3pt shots is ludicrous. To his credit, Horry stopped Rasheed on 2 postups in the 2nd pd (9:35 & 4:30). But in the same period Horry played Pippen poorly in a PNR and Pip scored a wide open J. And shortly after the 4 for 13 announcement, Ruben Patterson took Horry to the hoop and scored on him. And Sheed scored over Horry 1on1 at the :40 mark in the 3rd. Early in the 4th qtr (with Madsen giving Shaq a breather), Horry failed to box out and Derrick Anderson took a rebound from him. Later in the 3rd with Medvedenko in the game, Wallace scored 1on1 over Horry again. At 7:40 in the 4th when the Blazers started to gain momentum, Bonzi Wells scored over Horry in the paint cutting the Lakers lead to 85-79. At 5:20, Horry had to foul Wells in the paint to stop him from scoring. My point was, is, and always will be that Horry, Walker, (and Fox & Hunter) all appear to be above average defenders when in fact they are only average on the ball defenders who can take advantage of that fact that O'Neall is waiting behind them. I evidenced this earlier with the BOS & NJN losses. I even went so far as to issue you a challenge where in I would tape all of the Lakers remaining games and grade Fox (or Horry). I knew you wouldn't take me up on the challenge but I have taped them all anyway and you lost. (It was great watching the rookie Kirilenko demolish Fox). Horry (and all of the other Lakers you held up as defensive stars - Walker, Fox, Hunter, & Fisher) were all exposed by the Blazers when Shaq was forced to come out and guard Wallace on the perimeter. (By the way, my personal favorite was Steve Kerr driving into the paint past Fisher and tying the game at 99). To hold up Fox, Walker, Hunter, Fisher or Horry as a defensive star in the absence of Shaq is an afront to the intelligence of every poster at Clutch City.
Gater- I pretty much agree with your argument, but could see where there might be some inconsistencies here and there. But I don't really care about how it applies to the Lakers. I'm more interested, given your position on defense, what you think it means for the Rockets. It's been my contention for quite a while that the Rockets' guards arent as atrocious as others ont eh board may think when it comes to defense - not that they're great or anything. If you put Shaq on the Rockets, do you think Francis and Mobley start playing real good on the ball defense and get even more passing lanes steals and the like. It is hte main reason I would like to see the ROckets do everything in their power to draft Yao Ming. Even if his game takes time to develope, if he's on the court, he will be top 3 in blocks per game / help defense no doubt.
