I went back to look it up, and will concede the Thunder weren't as good defensively as I could have sworn I remembered. Still top 10, though. I agree that Harden's playoff production dropoffs are a bit more than the usual superstar (though still greatly exaggerated), but, again, those dropoffs have [to me] pretty clear and relatively objective explanations. I can't disagree that it's speculation, but can you honestly tell me you don't think Harden has generally had significantly worse teammates than Curry over the past 5-6 seasons? Do you not think that fact is relevant here? If not, then we're probably at an impasse. "Best Rocket" is debatable, but Curry was also not the "best Warrior" in many series that his team won, including every championship. There's a reason he's never even won a Finals MVP despite winning three [weak ass] titles... Also, you can't ignore the 2019 playoffs against that same GS team when Harden was the best player in the series on both teams. Like I said, the stats are imperfect, especially in isolation. One number in one year does not debunk the value of all the advanced metrics that Harden dominates year after year. Plus, Westbrook can be/has been pretty damn good, even if he's nowhere near Harden. Harden shooting even 30% from 3 (which is still a worse case scenario) isn't THAT detrimental. That's still a 45% eFG, not to mention the FTs his step back draws, and the offense it opens up for his teammates. Let alone his defense and rebounding. Again, all the impact numbers back this up. I'm sorry, your Jordan/Lebron point is the most nonsensical to me of anything you're saying here. Why does being able to touch the top of the backboard suddenly make 3-pt shooting meaningless? Does that mean we can compare Dwight Howard to Jordan, but not to Harden? The same stats measure the same things for all players, whether they can touch the top of the backboard or they can't reach the net.
the jazz were #2. also the jazz the next year were #2. harden has almost certainly played the best group of defensive teams of anyone over the past several years of the playoffs (lebron played the warriors a lot but i'm assuming his eastern opponents were not as good on defense). starting with the 2015 conference finals, we have played 11 series and they include: warriors x 4 (elite regular season defensive teams before durant; the durant warriors didn't try in the regular season but were obviously great playoff D's, the 2018 warriors i believe led the playoffs in defensive efficiency) #1 spurs defense in 2017 #2 jazz defense in 2018 #2 jazz defense in 2019 #3 lakers defense in 2020 that's 8 of his last 11 series against top 3 or better defenses. his "easy" series were: #7 okc in 2020 (with lu dort going crazy) #10 okc in 2017 #28 minny in 2018 8 series against top 3 defenses and 2 more against top 10 defenses, with only 1 gimme against minnesota (and he didn't actually put up great stats so his numbers aren't padded by that series). teams in the playoffs have better than average defenses, but they don't all have top 3 defenses. just for reference, the clippers and lakers this past year didn't face a single team above #11 for the entire playoffs. numbers like PER and TS% are definitely influenced by how good the opposing defense is. Win Shares is a little trickier because a team with an elite defense might have a mediocre offense (like okc) and help you gain defensive win shares to replace the offensive win shares, but when 4 of your opponents are the warriors, you're obviously not catching that particular break.
There's a lengthy discussion in this thread. In our wins that series, the best Rocket was either CP3 or Eric Gordon. Are you kidding? Shooting 30% from the 3pt line for a series is terrible for a high volume 3pt shooter. In the playoffs, we know that FT's aren't awarded as generously as in the regular season. Therefore, there's an increased emphasis on shot-making. Also, how does it open up the offense for his teammates? When Harden shoots so poorly, our opponents will give him all the step back 3's he wants. Because of their physical gifts, they never developed an overreliance on the 3pt shot. You don't need to be an elite 3pt shooter when you can run faster, tower over, jump higher, hang in the air longer, or simply overpower your opponents.
Please see my edit to my last post. I believe I addressed several of your points much better (especially the first handful). Harden is shooting so poorly specifically because teams are NOT "giving him" step back 3s. He's taking them because the offense relies on him to do so. The defense becoming tougher and the rules [unfairly] changing, as you admit, in the playoffs makes them harder. Again, those physical gifts are 100% irrelevant here. Can those gifts be measured by results other than 3-pt shooting? If not, why not? If so, why can't we use those same measures for Curry and Harden? Ultimately, I could/should end each of my posts with what I edited into the 3rd paragraph of my above reply: Do you or do you not agree that Curry has generally had significantly better teammates than Harden over the past 5-6 seasons? Why do you think Curry has three [weak] titles and zero finals MVPs? Do you agree that that fact is relevant to this discussion?
By defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions), the Jazzholes were 2nd in the NBA in 2018 (and nearly tied for 1st): https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html By any valid reasoning I've heard or can think of, that is by far the best way to ultimately judge team defense.
since harden and curry became mvp candidates and the warriors and rockets got good in 2014-15, curry's playoff PER and TS% actually drop more than harden's (3.6 vs 3.1 on PER, 3.1% vs 2.7% for TS%).
I agree that it's true, but it's not that simple. Harden shouldn't get bonus points for not being able to get along with his star teammates. He shouldn't get bonus points for stars not wanting to come to Houston to play with him. I also think that Curry was the ideal teammate for Draymond Green. I don't think Draymond Green would've flourished playing with Harden. That's his go-to move. Why should he get bonus points b/c he's cultivated a go-to move that has a high degree of difficulty? They're absolutely relevant. The more physical dominance a player has, the less he needs to rely on skill. 3pt shooting is a skill. Curry and Harden lack the physical gifts of the Lebrons/Jordans/Shaqs/etc... They compensate by elevating their skill level.
tied for 8th in what? i got my numbers from basketball reference. actually, one of the only differences i see from nba.com is that the 2017-18 jazz are actually #1 in DRtg on nba.com vs the #2 i listed.
Nice, I see you're ignoring their 2014 season (54-28 record) to avoid including Harden's 51.9% postseason TS%. In any case, regarding postseason drop-offs, the degree of drop-off isn't nearly as important as where the drop-off lands. So what if Curry drops from around 63% TS in the regular season to 60% TS in the postseason? 60% TS is still solid, isn't it?
i'm confused, has harden played with tons of stars and not been able to win with them or has he been so toxic that he never gets to play with any stars because they don't want to join the team? either way, the only guy who "wanted to come play" for golden state was durant, and he left as fast as he could, despite the fact he was collecting rings and finals mvp's like clockwork.
Here's the problem with your logic. As we advance deeper into the playoffs, our opponents get tougher. Does that mean it's ok for Harden to shoot poorly?
You call it speculation when I say that Harden would have shot better with better teammates, but there is plenty of precedent for players (including Harden) playing more efficiently with better teammates. I think it is WAY more speculative to presume to know why Harden hasn't had better teammates or how well Draymond Green would have played with him. I actually think Dray is a perfect teammate for Harden. Doesn't need the ball, can P&R well, can defend every position, can make plays both off the ball and with the ball... Meanwhile, Harden also deserves credit for making Capela look like a borderline all star, and [at least temporarily] reviving the careers of guys like Gordon and Anderson. Once again, his go-to move is still highly effective, it's just that you're using a single one-dimensional metric for a multidimensional outcome. You don't have to shoot 40% from 3 for your 3 to be helping your team, let alone for everything else he does to help his team. I'm going to drop the Jordan/Lebron debate for now. I couldn't disagree with you more, and we're way too far apart here to even have hope of a consensus (for reasons that probably don't bode well for our other discussions here, but regardless).
We signed Dwight who thought he and Harden would co-star. That happened for a little while, but it didn't work out and the Rockets effectively pushed Howard out. We then acquired CP3 because we were the only team willing to pay him the max. We then traded CP3 for Westbrook because Harden didn't get along with CP3. We then traded Westbrook for Wall because Westbrook's style didn't mesh with Harden's. Do you think other stars were oblivious to all this?
Everybody pushed Dwight out. He was a coward and a crybaby. That's why he became a journeyman as he aged. How do you know why we traded Paul? I've heard just as much speculation about Tilman wanting him out after a bad season and because he believed Westbrick would sell tickets. Westbrook's style doesn't mesh with anyone's. There's a reason Durant left and George left, and a reason Westbrook teams fail year after year. Outside of Chris Paul, Harden has never even played with a sidekick that was as good [or as good of a fit] as Dray OR Klay. Let alone Kevin Durant.
Because he also faltered in the finals when he was teamed with Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. Draymond Green absolutely needs the ball. He's not a catch and shoot guy. Look how the Warriors have always used him. He either waits for teammates to get open and makes a perfect pass or he's playing 4v3. And if Green has the ball, that means Harden needs to play off-ball. No, but when you're shooting 30% from 3 on high volume, you aren't helping your team.
Bro, he was like 20 years old and in his first ever finals. Not to mention he was a 3rd option. Almost everyone sucks the first time. Hell, look at LeBron ins 2006 AND 2011. Dray doesn't need to hold the ball I mean. He can create without dribbling from the elbow or the arch, and he's one of the best pick-setters in the NBA. Not to mention the toughness and leadership he brings. I didn't say he can catch and shoot. As for last point, to summarize everything I've said in my last several posts: That is just not true.
This is where we disagree. You want to judge players based exclusively on results (and one cherry picked stat, I guess). The world is far more nuanced than that. Circumstances matter. If Chris Paul doesn't get hurt or Scott Foster is in jail, Harden almost certainly has a title or two, and both he and Paul are still Rockets, and we're not even having this discussion despite almost none of these numbers or teams or anything being much different.
