Yes, I said multiple elite wing defenders. I'm using the metric the league uses to highlight who is an elite defender. Good attempt though. Was Oladipo on the Heat team in 2018, or did we just send him there last year (for free)? Wasn't he an injured player that we could barely dump that year? Do I think he was an elite wing defender last year? Do I think he lost athleticism? Are these serious questions on a Rockets board? Did you not watch Oladipo after his injury and when he was on our team? Calling Oladipo elite at anything but stealing $$ last year may be one of the most ridiculous takes I have seen on this board. Since his career altering injury after 2018 (which I'm sure you are aware of), this guy has only played 96 regular season games in 4 seasons. HE PLAYED FOUR GAMES FOR MIAMI LAST YEAR!! And you are accusing someone else of being intellectually dishonest? LOL Because you are assuming that other teams wouldn't have as much of an urgency to win if they didn't have a play-in tournament to rely on. Know what we don't have to make assumptions about...whether GS did what was necessary to qualify for the playoffs. Did they do that? Simple question. GS lost two play-in games and did not do what was necessary to make the playoffs. They went lotto. This is fact. KG won a title when he had elite help. Giannis won a title when he had good help (he has no other elite player on the team). Great players win with elite help. The players on GS compliment those elite two way bigs very well. Klay can create his own offense. So can Iggy. So can David Lee. So can Livingston and Barbosa off the bench. And if you have elite offensive bigs then you don't need as much offensive creation because bigs get others open looks. Again, something that should be common knowledge for anyone that has watched the Rockets franchise. But hey, we get it. All the guys aside from Curry on GS are bums but Victor Oladipo post his injury is elite even though he could barely suit up.
He shot poorly but still had 8 assists to only 1 turnover. Highest plus/minus out of all starters as well and only second to GP2. When your bum loser hero shoots poorly it’s also accompanied by poor decision making and 5 turnovers. That’s the difference.
imagine defending a dude who only needed 16 points to win even when he whiff at the 3 pointer line. gsw is stacked Harden can't have any off games or we have folks like u btch nonstop for not carrying
Sorry, but that's a stupid argument and we all know it. We all know that it's possible to be an elite defender without being named to an all-defensive team. So what's your argument? That he's currently not 100% and therefore no longer an elite defender? And you're assuming that GSW wouldn't play with more urgency, too. Yes, those are facts. It's also a fact that last year was the first time in NBA history that the 8th seed didn't play in the play-offs due to the play-in. Again, you're full of crap. The bulk of Klay's offense doesn't come from him creating his own shot. Same for Iggy. Same for Barbosa. David Lee wasn't on the team. And are you seriously comparing the offense of Olajuwon to that of Garnett/Giannis? I suggest you familiarize yourself with his game b/c you sound ignorant.
Michael Jordan LeBron James Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Tim Duncan Kobe Bryant Magic Johnson Shaquille O'Neal Larry Bird Wilt Chamberlain Bill Russell Hakeem Olajuwon Julius Erving Karl Malone Moses Malone Kevin Durant Jerry West Bob Pettit Dirk Nowitzki Bob Cousy Kevin Garnett John Havlicek Oscar Robertson Giannis Antetokounmpo Rick Barry David Robinson This is purely accolades based. Curry has 2 MVPs which is strong, but only 4 first team all NBA teams. Obviously, based on pure skill level he's way ahead of guys like Bob Cousy lmao. But the accolades just don't stack up with most of those guys and that's the only way to compare cross eras. I will say though if he gets FMVP (looking likely at this point) I'd slot him ahead of Oscar.
#1 offensive option on a team is the "cornerstone" in the words of our great Harden. And as we know all too well, conrerstones don't just mesh and go into battle. So all your talk of elite help is dumb - nobody is going to help an assh*le unless that assh*le is Michael Jordan who is otherwordly under pressure and thus will be best to go into battle with. 29 GMs out there should read your template to sure-fire championship built team for dummies and build a dynasty. Please, call Stone and ask him to trade Green.
I still can't get over this. You think a lineup of Livingston, Klay, Iggy, Draymond, and Garnett can win a title? Seriously? That team would struggle to score.
Yes, it is stupid to say someone is being intellectually dishonest when they use league defensive accolades to gauge how good players are defensively. My argument is that Oladipo hasn't been the same player since his injury, is no longer an elite defender, can barely stay on the court and only played 4 games in the year you tried to cite him as an example. Good attempt to try and gloss over you bringing up a guy for Miami last year that didn't play for them. And you talk about intellectually dishonesty. Why did you reference Oladipo last year, when he only played 4 games? Do you think Oladipo is still an elite defender, in the limited games he can manage to get on the court? That is correct. We are both assuming. What is a known fact is GS did not do what was required to qualify for the playoffs. They went lotto. You are just trying to excuse it. Yes, you are full of crap. Hardly anyone has to create their own offense in the GS system. That doesn't mean players aren't capable of doing that. Klay can create his own shot. So can the other guys that I mentioned, and we have seen them do it just fine on other teams. It's not as necessary in GS. And Lee was on the first title team. Yes, we can agree you are full of crap and don't seem to know what the hell you are talking about. You reference Oladipo when he played 4 games and now don't even recall Lee being on the initial title team? I'm noting that every big I mentioned requires a double team and gets other open looks. They would excel with the GS core, full of players that can hit open shots, defend and yes, create their own offense. Yes, you may want to familiarize yourself with the games of the players you are discussing. But hey, we get it. All of Curry's teammates are bums and guys like Oladipo are still elite despite injuries that derail their career and have them barely playing 1 season of games in nearly half a decade. Yes, that sounds very ignorant. A lineup of: Bogut KG/Draymond/Lee Iggy/Barnes Klay Livingston/Barbosa Will not struggle to score, will be beyond elite defensively, and be a champion. But there is no need to discuss this with someone that didn't even know Lee was on the team and is referencing a player as elite at anything when they play a whopping 4 games for a team.
So you are referencing who scores the most points as your leader? I guess Magic Johnson was rarely the leader of the Lakers? Talk of elite help is done, when you can barely name a handful of players that have won without it? Kareem wasn't an *******? There is no need for them to read it if they know the history of the league. Most title teams are the ones with arguably the most talent in the league.
So 1 consistent perimeter threat? And you think that's good enough to win a title? Seriously? You must be trolling me. This is a fringe playoff team at best. Remember, Livingston was 29 and Iggy was 31.
Yes, that's intellectually dishonest. Here's why you're wrong. You're effectively saying the 5th best defensive guard isn't an elite defender. I referenced Oladipo this year where he played 15 playoff games. I think that if Oladipo is fully healthy, then he's still an elite defender. That's because the offense is built around Curry. And in your scenario, Curry would be replaced by Garnett. There's a big difference between the iso abilities of a 31 year old Iggy and a 30 year old Paul Pierce. You're aware of this, right? Please, use some critical thinking. Just a little. Yes, I overlooked David Lee being on the initial title team. His impact was so negligible that I forgot he was on the team. Ironic, isn't it? In reality, he was useless, but in your head, he's a game changer. Pathetic. And there'd be no consistent perimeter threat to take advantage of those open looks. The defense would ultimately force the basketball into the hands of a non-shooter.
This is a thread that compares harden and curry - with the emphasis that harden is more elite and just didn't have talented teammates. My argument is that unlike other greats, Harden either wasn't elite enough (playoffs) talent or leader enough to attract keep and elevate the talent on his team as #1 talent on that team. At the same time, Curry was both able to keep his talented core and attract and elevate other stars (KD, Wiggins). Whether it was Curry's talent or leadership that enabled him to do this is irrelevant. Rocket's with Harden had a revolving door policy for talent to come through - and the buck for that stops with the #1 talent because everyone caters to said talent in the end. You said it yourself - talent is the utmost prerequisite to winning a championship. With all of that said, how can you simply swap out #1 talent on a team for another talented player and start making assumptions? And how can you undervalue superstar's leadership skills? Tim Duncan, the fundamentals is always credited with his leadership skills. It is not for nothing. Can't simply say "Harden didn't have enough help or he would have wiped the floor with Curry" or some such dumb statement and that's what you seem to be ultimately saying (notwithstanding all the goal post moving you do)
I could go back n forth with you on this all day, but you lost the little credibility you had when you: 1. Brought up Oladipo as an elite defender post his career altering injury in 2018. "Hey, look at this guy that made All D in 2018." Uh, didn't his career change with an injury right after that...where is the elite D since then? You are still being dishonest about that. You now claim he played 15 playoff games. So that gave him a whopping 23 games in Miami last season. Now you are changing it to you think he is elite if healthy. He's barely played 100 games in nearly half a decade. He didn't even play 25 last year. HE'S NOT HEALTHY!! That's why we had to give him away. 2. Said David Lee wasn't on the team that you brought up in the first place. This was in response to me saying those 3 bigs could win with any team Curry won with. You called out the first team, then our exchange followed. Lee was on that team. You don't even know who was on the team you brought up and you are calling guys elite if healthy when they literally can't stay healthy...like in years. You're not worthy of a dialogue. You may as well change your username to dishonest. It appears that the intellectually part would be a stretch.
Gotcha. To be clear, my comments that you were responding to had nada to do with Harden. And this is my issue with that statement. Neither Harden or Curry are a GM. Harden played for a GM that couldn't close deals, and an owner that wouldn't open up his wallet. Curry didn't keep his talented core. His ownership opened up the wallet to keep them. If you want to prop Curry for getting hurt and signing a lower salaried deal to allow that...go ahead. Curry didn't attract Wiggins. GS got him as a salary dump, which came with a high draft pick. Curry didn't attract KD. The team attracted KD. Draymond was the main one recruiting his ass all year, if you feel the need to assign credit to just one player. The assumption that I'm making is that elite two way bigs like KG, Moses Maone and Giannis can win with GS's core. Are you also on record that those bigs couldn't win surrounded by Klay, Green, Barnes, Iggy, Livingston, Barbosa, Bogut and Lee? I'm going to go on a limb and say that would be a very minority opinion. I'm not. I just don't agree that you are or aren't the leader because you're the #1 scoring option.
I suggested that the premise of your argument/statements (where you ask people to substitute one player for another) is faulty.. And you don't address that with any valid argument - ie you don't explain how you think that a number one talent on an NBA team is not going to effect the team's decisions and culture in a significant way (which is what leading is mostly about in a long term). So I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is totally fine by me. edit: term "culture" is meant to encompass an environment that lends to people improving and performing to the best of their ability.
He sure played a lot of minutes in the playoffs for a guy who isn't healthy. Like I said before, forgive me for forgetting about David Lee who was out of the rotation. But also like I said before, that just proves you wrong. In reality, he wasn't impactful enough to be on the court. In your head, he was a game-changer. The reason you're running away is b/c I've argued you into submission at every turn. Everyone can see it. Seriously though, it's beyond stupid to think that Garnett or Giannis could win a title with a team built around Curry, and you know it. That's why you're afraid to defend your assertion. You know it's full of holes.
MJ got the same thing happened when he played against the Pistons. I'm not saying it's exactly apples to apples but great players tend to do something more if their usual scoring isn't there or if the defense focuses on you. I've seen a lot of double teams to Curry once he touches the ball almost anywhere. If you can setup your teammates, that would be better just like what Curry did this game. For sure, there are lots in the highlights where you can see this.
