Can somebody explain this to me?

You mean he can't figue out it's common that all ethnic group or nationalities congregate in foreign countries to some extent if he actually give it some thinking, as a "UT" baller? I don't know which is more condescending. As for the question, seems he's already made up mind that the problem lies strict in China's part before the actual discussion.

And Sarcasm is juvenile? Listen to the sarcastic Whitehouse press in response to French writer's claim that 9/11 is a made-up, I suppose that's juvenile too? A lot of great thinkers in history are masters of sarcasm too.

 

Hell yeah, that was Ms. Cook. Do you remember Laura Wilkins? Monique Pantoja? I'll try to think of more, but those were the two I was with over at Kempner...I sent you an email in your Yahoo one, check that one out or reply here- either way. Rarely do you ever meet another Orchestra student tied that closely to you.

 

Originally posted by michecon
You mean he can't figue out it's common that all ethnic group or nationalities congregate in foreign countries to some extent if he actually give it some thinking, as a "UT" baller?

You contradict yourself. Using 'to some extent' implies that you believe that different nationalities congregate to varying degrees.

I don't know which is more condescending. As for the question, seems he's already made up mind that the problem lies strict in China's part before the actual discussion.

How do you figure? Sounds like he's asking a question, and the answer could be 'many Chinese have a problem with us because they took offense to our arrogance'. If he had already made up his mind, this thread would probably have started with an indictment of the Chinese, not a question.

And Sarcasm is juvenile? Listen to the sarcastic Whitehouse press in response to French writer's claim that 9/11 is a made-up, I suppose that's juvenile too? A lot of great thinkers in history are masters of sarcasm too.

I agree, good point.

 

Um where's Azadre on this list?

 

You didn't just say that, did you??? Seriously?

BK, I love you man, but YOU calling sarcasm juvenille and decrying the mocking or dismissing of a statement through its use???

Now, I've heard everything!

 

Probably the past actions of foreigners in China.
Does the <i>Boxer Rebellion </i> ring a bell?

<A HREF="http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/fists.html">The Boxer Rebellion</A>

<A HREF="http://history.acusd.edu/gen/corps/guy1.html">Role of the United States Marines During the Relief of Peking,
The Boxer Rebellion - 1900</A>

Answered by others, but also note that foreign governments kept their compounds failry close to each in China over a century ago, so there is precedent.

 

I'm gonna chime in on the Communism part. I'll reinstate things that I repeatedly wrote, but gone neglected or not taken seriously.

1. I hate communists.

2. I support the current Chinese communists government.

3. I support them as there is no suitable replacement for them, as they are doing their job of developing the economy which is generally the NO.1 priority, all other things aside, on Chinese people's mind, and most important of all, they are NOT communists in their nature. Not any more since 1978, especially after 1992. They are a big time capitalistic party under the disguise of communism, they use communism as a crotch for their governing but they don't really believe in it. China's current booming economy is driven by free competition in free markets, not by some rigid central government planning. In fact, booming economy and planned economy are oxymoron.

4. I don't trust the American government's motive to harp on China's problems such as human rights etc. I don't think those American politicians actually give a damn to the living and feeling of the Chinese people. They are saying whatever convinient to achieve their goals, and their first goal in dealing with China is not to help the Chinese live a better life but to contain China. There's some, I don't know how many American politicians and Americans who don't want to see China's progress and take the initial steps to antagonize China. They want to have their way with China and one of the means is through ideological control. Now before someone calling me a victim of China's proganda, it worths to take a note that these perceptions are not just prevalent among Chinese in the mainland, but also have become common knowledge among Chinese who live in environment of free press, such as Hongkongese, or even some Taiwanese. It becomes this way as the USA government contantly jump on every opportunity to make the Chinese government look bad, with or without due diligence and prudence, sometimes to the point of utter ridiculousness and drove away a large portion of Chinese who previously believed in the US governement's every word.

One out of the numerous counts being the Fa Lueng Gong incident, in which the president and congressmen of USA condemned Chinese government's action against Fa Lueng Gong, proclaiming it's a violation of freedom of religion. They can't be more wrong. In reality, Fa Lueng Gong is an evil cult, and an apparent one. I myself had the oppurtunity to pick up one copy of Fa Lueng Gong leader Lee Hong Zhi's works, published in USA, in a Houston Chinese bookstore(which means it's not "fixed" by the Chinese government) 3 years ago. I read 3 pages and I knew the guy is a major crook. In mere 3 pages he claims how he knows all the principles in the universe more so than all the scientists, how he is the buddha reincarnation, how you'll get saved and go to heaven once you follow his divine words, how you don't need to worry about illness and medication 'cuz his meditation cures it all... and now the USA government didn't even bother to actually check Fa Lueng Gong out before classifying this evil cult as a religion, and is using it as an excuse to make the Chinese government look bad. Things like this wears out people's trust on the US government, and more and more Chinese people in whether mainland, Hong Kong, Singapore... came to the realization that the US government is never really on their side but always and only acting for it's own interest. They learnt not to trust the US government, as a result, not by the Chinese government's propaganda, but by the US governement's self destruction in its credibility. It's interesting that 13 years every Chinese tuned in to listen to The Voice of America during the Tianammen Square incident, and now...

The way USA politicians shift swiftly between alliance and antagonism with a dictatorship under the lead of self interest is funny and speaks volume on their sincerity on other country's well being using the often called upon "word daggers" such as democracy, freedom and human rights etc...

To sum it up, part of the problems the Chinese perceive towards the USA government is their condescending, hypocritic attitude and ill will. I might add the Chinese are not the only race in the world that feels this way. The Chinese don't have problems with Americans, it's just the government they don't like. Even the CCP's propaganda interprets the US antagonism against China is a result of a handful China haters among the USA political circle and society, not a norm among the general people of America.

Sorry this is not what you guys want to hear, the standard answers have always been communism and China expansionism when it comes to Sino-USA relationship, but the situation is not so simple and self gratifying. To assume that only one side is right or wrong is one-sided in itself. To add some perspective to these concerns, I presented what actually goes on the mind general Chinese people here, under the awareness that I'll prolly be classified as a mindless clone manipulated by the communistic propaganda machine, brainwashed to not believe in the sincerity and absolute morality of people who lives under democracy and freedom, and is only here giving out standard propaganda pamphlets out of Chinese homerism and blind patriotism, as it's done before. Great, if so why ask these type of questions when all someone wants to hear are the standard lines?

 

You term it <i>conditioned</i>, while I view it more as having a basic knowledge of the topic. Even if someone hasn't had a world history course in recent years, a few minutes running a <i>Google</i> search will pull up numerous articles that can be quickly skimmed to refresh their memory. Japan, China, Vietnam and the Philippines have had different types of interactions with Western countries, so that alone will create some differences in viewpoints and sentiments toward the United States. Internal factors such as:

historical forms of government
religion
economic development
society norms

would likely have some influence on the viewpoint of Asian countries towards the United States, but that wasn't the question asked in this thread.

 

Panda,
No need to jump to conclusions. Your take on the 'average Chinese' view is very interesting and much appreciated.

Is your view of the China-US relationship maybe too negative? You believe that there is a large contingent of US politicians who want only ill for China, yet Congress passed permanent normal trade relations with China last year, over the cooncerns of politicians who mentioned an $80 B trade deficit. *Thats just one example) Ever since Tiananmen Square, a contingent of politicians have fought normal trade relations; that contingent did not exist before Tiananmen.

I distinctly recall Tiananmen, our media did cover it quite well. What an incredibly proud moment for your people. You might find it surprising that the human interest side of the story is what fueled it here, not the Chinese-government bashing perspective. You may feel that some here use it for political gains, maybe so, but I think many Americans were moved by Tiananmen.

As for the seemingly willy-nilly nature of our government, many of the main players change every few years. They have very differing views of the world, and will act out on them. Even with the same congress, many issues may be close to 50-50 split of votes, and thus one day may swing one way and another day it may swing the other. FWIW.

You also mention that Chinese do not necessairly have a problem with the American people, but just some of the politicians. Similarly, I'll present my personal view that the Americans that I know have no problems at all with the Chinese, and see your government as a separate and 'controlling' (euphemistically) organization. Even the view of your government has softened over the years, although I imagine that Tibet and Taiwan will be problems between our governments for many years.

(BTW, you may want to change 'crotch' to 'crutch' before you get ribbed pretty bad )

 

Cohen:
You are right that not all the US politicians are against China. There's pro-China politicians, who think that as long as China develops one day it'll end up just like any other developed country. They believe USA can have a constructive relationship with China.

I understand the American politics is an arena in which left and right, pros and cons exchange bouts. What I decribed is that pattern of actions from USA against China. The permanent trade status is one of the example that illustrates there's strings attached to China affairs.

Every year the USA reviews the "human rights record" beofre granting the "most favorable trading status"(don't know the English counterpart, a rough translation here) to China. On the contrary, they don't do it to other countries who shares equal blame in this aspect. Playing the human right card without restriction dicriminately against China-I don't recall the USA employs such tactic against the infamously repressing countries like Iraq before Gulf War- is not a sign of good will. It's the basic diplomatic approach throughout the years regardless of political figures in office. Only the degrees varies, some want to increase their leverage in dealing with China(Clinton and Gore), some want to demonize China into the next powerful Nazi Germany so that a big army must be built for future confrontation(national defense contractors and their political puppets), some are racists who don't want see black people do well let alone the yellow people. Various motives that stays regardless of the come and go of politicians.

The normal trade status has more to do with American's interest in China more than some goodwill on politicians part. The American companies, like other countries, are dumping billions of dollars of investment setting up joint ventures in China. Some American companies are already making huge profit in China, such as Johnson and Johson, Procter and Gamble etc. To make it concrete, the KFC opened over 700 franchises in China in just 4 years, a world record breaking speed(I guess one of the definition of communism is to let capitalists roam free and making money off the worker class huh? ). Isolating China economically will be risking those business investments. Furthermore, the 80 billion trade deficit does not tell the whole story, as you can see by picking up a made-in-China item in a supermarket, the majority of the goods shipped to USA are actully manufactured by USA companies' joint ventures in China. Cutting off or detering trades with China is cutting off buying partial products from the USA companies. The Chinese products also give US customers' dollars more bang - cheaper and better subtitutes are next impossible to find.

There's also external forces that wish to capitilize on the opportunity had USA and China are on bad terms- the Taiwan, Tibetan independenlists and the emerging Japanese militarists(the New Nazi movement in Germany is undergoing at a much slower pace than that in Japan) etc... that tries to do whatever they can deter the progress of relationship between USA and China.

Although I don't foresee this basic stance of containment on China to change in the near future, I'm optimistic that China and USA won't be stupid enough to go against each other. That does nothing but harm the interests of both sides in all aspects...economy, social, cultural.... I also believe that the economic progess of China will inevitably change its political and social infrastructure, making it more democratic and free. The day that China formally announces her being capitilistic will come sooner or later. The riddance of the communism label will make the anti-China figures' stance much weaker. The US's businesses and people will get more and more interwined with that of the China's, forming strong ties that's hard to break. After all, the Chinese and Americans have at least one thing in common, they all like to have fun and enjoy their lives. They are the driving forces of the basic direction in foreign affairs, not some ill-willed politicians. That's why I'm on this board, to have fun and enjoy the Rockets.

Finally, I stand corrected. Yes it's crutch, not crotch.

 

Yeah, I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm trying to make an effort to avoid getting dragged into that kind of ****.