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Can China have capitalism without democracy

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by pirc1, Jan 4, 2006.

  1. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    wow, you are pretty damn ignorant. You refuse to talk to anyone actually from China because they are all damn commies if they don't agree with you that China is the worst country in the world. Of course, since you don't actually speak to anyone from there, it helps you to stay wrapped up in your own little world where McCarthy is still tossing actors in jail for reading Karl Marx
     
  2. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    Looks like they do want to crack down on currpution in China, hey the communist party do want to stay in power. ;)

    link

    China Launches Site to Report Corruption 1 hour, 32 minutes ago



    BEIJING - China is putting its marathon anti-graft crackdown online, launching a Web site for the public to report corrupt officials.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    The site adds to efforts to assure China's public that the ruling Communist Party takes complaints seriously even as many believe they face retaliation for reporting abuses.

    The new site is run by the party's Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, the official Xinhua News Agency reported.

    The Web site offers Chinese villagers and others a way to lodge complaints directly, bypassing local authorities who are sometimes criticized for retaliating against petitioners or refusing to take action on complaints.

    China has the world's second-largest population of Internet users after the United States, with more than 100 million people online.
     
  3. torque

    torque Member
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    Has anyone read Capitalism and Freedom by Milton Friedman?
     
  4. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    No, but I assume you will gave us a short summary soon. ;)
     
  5. nyquil82

    nyquil82 Member

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    Nice, I guess that means the America forces child labor, because I made a lot of my younger cousins do my cleaning and work. For CANDY, man, CANDY.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Phi83
    You are obviously a communist and agree that China is the best country and can do no wrong. There is no arguing with you since you are programmed to defend big brother. Got that Commie!

    When you resort to saying such absolutes, it usually means you got your ass kicked in the debate.
     
  6. lalala902102001

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    What happens in China now is similiar to what happened in Germany in the 1930's. Capitalistic economy + totalitarian goverment = economic boom.

    It's the consequence of this boom that scares me.
     
  7. michecon

    michecon Member

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    Why are you PhDs and highly educated arguing with some 3 year old?

    Perplexing.
     
  8. Panda

    Panda Member

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    Democracy and freedom is not the same thing. Take Hong Kong for example, there is never a true democratic system in place, yet HK people enjoy much freedom in speech and protest. Back in the days, the governers of Hong Kong were all appointed by the British government, and the HK people had no right to vote them in or out of office. What the HK people had was some district elections that put some representatives into the chairs in legislative bodies, who have the power to discuss policies with the British appointed governer as the final boss.

    The economic development will invariably cause the demand for more freedom, as is now in China. However, I doubt China will embrace the same model of politics and freedom in the U.S. For example,due to China's population stress, a full democratic system will put the right to unlimited births in average Chinese folk's hands. This causes huge concerns in China's economic and social development. It's probable for them to abandon the current one child one family policy if a full democracy is installed. Next thing we know is China's population explodes to 2.5 billion, placing huge burdens on herself and the world.

    Even if China adopts democracy one day, it's in their interests to create a unique system that secure their freedom as well as restricting freedom in beneficial ways, instead of a U.S. copycat.

    Different countries should have different range on freedom. In U.S there's strict regulations on minor's alcohol consumption. I think this is partly due to the large number of minor drivers. Youthful indiscretion behind a wheel under alcoholic influence is a dangerous combination. In China such regulations don't exist, there's not enough teenager drivers to raise concern. On this minor aspect, the Chinese teenagers and adults have more freedom than their U.S. counterparts. The situation is different, the reaction is too.

    The point is, democracy isn't just related to economy but also social affairs. The range of freedom also should, and is, different from country to country. From things as big as birth control, to as small as alcohol consumption. China's economic development will lead to more demand for freedom, in a shape that's different to other countries, by a form of system that embraces more democratic elements than before, yet may not be totally democratic. The final configuration lays in the hand of the Chinese people, which is an interesting scenario waiting to be unfolded.
     
  9. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    thats the stupidest thing I've heard anyone say on this BBS.
     
  10. Panda

    Panda Member

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    It's funny while the reporter reports what Chinese want - cars, health and education, while some xenophobias worry about Chinese wanting fascism.
     
  11. DollarBill

    DollarBill Member

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    You are obviously r****ded!! When did he say China is the best country and can do no wrong? when and where? You are clearly not here to debate. Rather, you just want to make a fool of yourself!!
     
  12. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    This is an overall well written article without typical western bias.

    Having spent last several weeks in Shanghai myself, I can only say I am amazed by what I saw and experienced there -- granted Shanghai has been at the forefront of the China's economic reform for more than a decade. One of the things I paid quite bit of attention to is the media. That includes some newspaper, radio and TV programs. CCP controlled propaganda is drastically reduced (or maybe it's more subtle, I don't know). I regularly received flyers in the mailbox for installing satellite TV (in ordinary households). Glancing over the packages they offer, I saw NBC, FOX, CNN, ESPN etc from US, plus a slew of programs from Japan, Korea, southeast Asia, and Europe (heck there were even multiple adult channels, some promised *uncut*).

    There are "60-Minutes" type of investigative programs aired daily in both local and national TV stations, exposing many dark sides of the society. Of course, they stopped short of placing the blame at higher up. But even so, I was fascinated by the stories being reported -- they were nicely produced programs, much much better than I expected. To be quite honest, I used to hold fairly low regard for Chinese TVs in general. I guess the competitions/ratings, along with the more laissez-faire approaches by PRC government on public airwaves do make a difference. IMO, the free TV programs offered in US, typically 4 major news outlets-affiliated TV stations plus PBS and/or UPN pale greatly in comparison.
     
    #52 wnes, Jan 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2006
  13. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    wnes, it is nice to see you are back in the D&D.
     
  14. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Thanks! It's great to get out of lurking mode. :)
     
  15. glynch

    glynch Member

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    The China Path
    China demonstrates that capitalism no longer needs democracy.
    By Robert B. Reich
    Web Exclusive: 01.09.06

    Print Friendly | Email Article



    You may remember when the world was divided between communism and capitalism, and when the Chinese were communists. The Chinese still call themselves communists, but now they’re also capitalists.

    In fact, visit China today and you find the most dynamic capitalist nation in the world. In 2005, it had the distinction of being the world’s fastest-growing major economy.

    China is the manufacturing hub of the globe. It’s is also moving quickly into the highest of high technologies. It already graduates more computer engineers every year than the United States.

    Its cities are booming. There are more building cranes in use today in China than in all of the United States. China's super-highways are filled with modern cars. Its deep-water ports and airports are world class. Its research and development centers are state of the art. At the rate it’s growing, in three decades China will be the largest economy in the world.

    Communist, as in communal? Are you kidding? The gap between China's rich and poor is turning into a chasm. China's innovators, investors, and captains of industry are richly rewarded. They live in luxury housing developments whose streets are lined with McMansions. They dine in fancy restaurants, and relax in five-star hotels and resorts. China's poor live in a different world. Mao Tse Tung would turn in his grave.

    So where are the Chinese communists? They’re in government. The communist party is the only party there is. China doesn’t have freedom of speech or freedom of the press. It doesn’t tolerate dissent. Authorities can arrest and imprison people who threaten stability, as the party defines it. Any group that dares to protest is treated brutally. There are no civil liberties, no labor unions, no centers of political power outside the communist party.

    China shows that when it comes to economics, the dividing line among the world’s nations is no longer between communism and capitalism. Capitalism has won hands down. The real dividing line is no longer economic. It’s political. And that divide is between democracy and authoritarianism. China is a capitalist economy with an authoritarian government.

    For years, we’ve assumed that capitalism and democracy fit hand in glove. We took it as an article of faith that you can’t have one without the other. That’s why a key element of American policy toward China has been to encourage free trade, direct investment, and open markets. As China becomes more prosperous and integrated into the global market -- so American policy makers have thought -- China will also become more democratic.

    Well, maybe we’ve been a bit naive. It’s true that democracy needs capitalism. Try to come up with the name of a single democracy in the world that doesn’t have a capitalist economy. For democracy to function there must be centers of power outside of government. Capitalism decentralizes economic power, and thereby provides the private ground in which democracy can take root.

    But China shows that the reverse may not be true -- capitalism doesn’t need democracy. Capitalism’s wide diffusion of economic power offers enough incentive for investors to take risks with their money. But, as China shows, capitalism doesn’t necessarily provide enough protection for individuals to take risks with their opinions.

    http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10804
     

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