Can China have capitalism without democracy

Now it's extrem bad time But at least, they can attack each other, and dig out each other's dirty spots.

 

Has anyone been to China here? They are more capitalist than we are.

They've been doing pretty well economically with their model for a long time so I'd say 'yes'.

I don't think democracy will work in China. Just imagine if the US had a billion extra people, and complete state control over education. Would you want a democracy?

 

Interesting article and I agree with a lot of it and what other posters have posted.

I agree that you can have Capitalism without Democracy. Democracy as a form of governance depends on what that society wants. If they want a central planned economy then they will have it under a democratic system. If they want free markets then they will have that. At the same time though I'm not sure a true capitalistic system can last long under an authoritarian government. While Marcos' Phillipines and Pinochet's Chile were called "Capitalists" they really didn't operate with true free markets. If anything there was more interference by government in their markets than what has been going on in the PRC. A well functioning free market can't exist in anarchy because there still needs to be a government that protects individual property and enforces contracts at the same time an authoritarian government that doesn't protect property or enforce contracts on an equal impartial basis makes it very difficult to for a free market to exists.

In the PRC they've made huge strides in protecting individual properties but are lagging in impartial enforcement of contracts sooner or later they will have to realize that without impartiality the economy will be hampered as contracts can't be counted on since you can pay off your local CCP official to get things favorable to you. The best way to reach impartiality in government is to make the government accountable to the people and without the vote there is no accountability. So at the moment the CCP is doing a good job managing the economy but it is not accountable. If the CCP did a bad job there would be no way of getting rid of it other than violent revolution which isn't good for the economy either. So if the PRC values economic development it will have to figure out a way to make the government accountable to the people in a peaceful manner and that means democracy.

 

How very mature.

 

You did NOT provide ANY data to support your claims that China force child labor and tanks rolled over students in Tiananmen Square. You did NOT. When that student movement happened, I was still in China, as a student in university. I first-handedly experienced the movement, which wasn't calling for CCP's head as CCP and your TV program claimed. I watched videos made officially and privately from many countries, did not find any evidence as you claimed. People were shot during the army march into the city, NOT the square. That was a sad sad moment, and the lowest point for Deng, and Chinese government for the past 20 years. However, lies can't be justified even you are trying to denounce evil deeds.

I can accept that people might be ignorant in some area, because I am no better myself. However, I cannot accept people being ignorant and intentionally lying about the NON-facts.

 

The Deli Lama, is he the guy preaching that the goal of life is to reach a profound state of Bologna?

The issue of Tibet isn't about capitalism ore even so ultimately about human rights but as a distinct culture and population should they have self-determination.

 

Actually, I think it's the opposite. Democracy would work very well there. Despite the presence of a number of minority groups, China's populace is overwhelmingly Han and thus relatively homogenous in an ethnic and cultural sense, with a political tradition of conformity and acceptance of central rule. I don't think it would be that hard to gain the support of a significant majority of the electorate for any given policy. (If I were guessing, I would say the biggest divide would be between the urbanites & the villagers)

To take a counterexample - India, with 1 billion people of its own, has been able to maintain a relatively stable democracy for almost 50 years now despite enormous obstacles: massive, VERY heterogenous population with thousands of ethnic groups and hundreds of official languages, huge religious divides, the world's most intricate class system, multiple armed rebellions going on at any one time, ongoing wars with its neighbors, no previous tradition of central control)

 

In a survey of 100 countries between 1960 and 1990, Robert Basso concluded that growth rates are negatively associated with higher democracy. His findings are echoed by the arguments of the neoliberal Chicago school, which argued that ‘excessive’ democratic participation was the main factor in undermining development.

From Journal of Economic Growth 1996, quoted in Takis Fotopolous p 172.

 

Please read this before commenting again... Read the whole dissertation... Especially about Firework manufacturing. This is real data from the Department of Labor.
http://www.dol.gov/ilab/media/reports/iclp/sweat/china.htm
As far as tanks rolling over people, that is semanitcs, they used tanks to break up the protest as well as guns to kill students.

 

Just in case you don't have the time or capability to read the whole dissertation:
Fireworks

The United States imported approximately $67 million of pyrotechnics and explosives from China in 1992.11 Children are reportedly working in the fireworks industry. A recent newspaper report detailed an explosion at a fireworks factory in Hebei killing one child and injuring 34 school girls ranging from 11 to 13 years of age.12 Investigators found that the school children had been forced by their teachers to work for slave wages making firecrackers. The school children were apparently promised 20 fen (2 cents) for making one long braid of firecrackers, but were actually paid three fen (0.3 cents). In its China Labor Notes newsletter of February/March 1994, AAFLI observes that this information was made public 38 days after the disaster occurred and no television coverage was permitted.13 In 1992, another fire at a fireworks factory killed 20 workers - it was reported that most of those killed were between 9 and 14 years old.14

Please understand that you and hotballa are wrong and you need to admit the truth...

 

Making some large assumptions here, but perhaps a quarter of those 100 countries had developed economies.

Poor countries need a structured long term plan that supercedes the lifetimes of many regimes. If they solely acquiesced the the West's demands, they'd be bottom feeders in pure capitalism, much like share croppers or indentured servants.

Tariffs, subsidies, protective trade, and command economies have their benefits. But they greatly outlive its usefulness after the country grows to a certain scale, economy or politically. It just isn't worth it to micromanage an empire.

 

I did read the report, and here is my homework after my read.


...
The number of children working in China is not known. Because of China's repressive political system, it was not possible to obtain any information directly from China. There are no Chinese non-governmental organizations (NGOs) active in this area, and foreign NGOs do not have access. Accordingly, it was impossible to corroborate or reject allegations by various labor and human rights organizations that children are working in export industries which produce for the United States market. It was also impossible to assess how diligently the Chinese Government enforces child labor laws or prosecutes child labor law violators, as well as to determine efforts by non-governmental organizations to address child labor in China.
...

A new labor law published on July 6, 1994 (effective January 1, 1995), prohibits the employment of children under 16 years of age.21 Previously, according to the U.S. Department of State Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, regulations promulgated in 1987 prohibited the employment of school age minors who had not completed the compulsory nine years of education.22
...


I comment based on my knowledge, the facts I experienced, and the facts in the report provided by you. However, you Sir, draw the conclusion that China FORCES child labor, if I may ask, from where and which fact?

Please get your great logic straight before commenting again.

 

Thank you for highlighting that sentence, not for me, but rather for yourself, just in case you don't have the time or capability to read. Those teachers are not all the teachers in China, those teachers are not China as a country. There are incidents that drug dealers in US or any other countries force women to become prostitutes, that doesn't mean US as a country force prostitutes. There are incidents that perverts, be it teacher, parent, or in church service, or any scumbags in any profession, in US and other countries, forced kids into child porno, that does NOT mean US as a country forces child porno. Got that, Einstein?

 

The rightful Qing successor needs to stand up and reclaim the mantle of rulership.

We Manchus have been suppressed long enough. It is time for us to reeneter the fray.

 

You are obviously a communist and agree that China is the best country and can do no wrong. There is no arguing with you since you are programmed to defend big brother. Got that Commie!

 

Haha, thank you for making my day. Obviously, you need a lesson about what democracy really means. It's my fault trying to discuss or reason with you, because I thought you might be interested in the facts and logic. But I was wrong. I apologize.

 

LOL @ myself

but yes you're right aobut the Tibet issue. It's the same thing other minorities in China have went through over the centuries, only difference is now that we're in the 21st century, everyone else has got to have an opinion about places that aint got nothing to do with them