1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Californians Fight Back Against Conservative Economics wrt to Schools

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. SunsRocketsfan

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    452
    I think you need more history lessons so here you go

    -----
    Reagan was originally a Democrat and an admirer of Franklin Roosevelt. Throughout the 1950’s his policies and ideals moved toward conservatism and he changed his registration to Republican in 1962. With support of businessmen and conservative backers, Reagan ran for Governor of California in 1966. He easily defeated incumbent Democratic Governor Edmund “Pat” Brown and served two terms. During this time he became a national political figure. When he left the office of Governor of California, the state budget showed a $550 million surplus.
    ---------

    So that was 40 years ago.. Regan left the state with a surplus and now we have billions of dollars in deficits. Hmmm and you want to blame Regan who was in charge 40 years ago??? That is quite a stretch you are making there.
    I would say blame the people currently in power and who has run the state into the ground with their out of control taxing and spending. I cant believe you actually believe we are not being taxed enough in California.
    Like someone posted cuts have to made somewhere. Here is California's budget and proposed budgets through 2011. You can also see the tax revenue here.

    http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/BudgetSummary/BSS/BSS.html
     
  2. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    2,499
    Likes Received:
    52
    The reason why he keeps mentioning property taxes is because its a major source of revenue for the state of California and its local municipalities, Its the 3rd largest source of income after income and sales tax. All three sources bring in anywhere from $40-$50 billion each.

    Proposition 13 limits property taxes so they're not proportional to the actual value of the property, this essentially makes California have one of the lowest property tax rates in the country. This causes a lot of problems since funding for local schools, which takes up almost a 3rd of california's budget, usually comes from property taxes. But since those taxes are capped, that funding has to come from the state, which needs to raise tax rates from other sources to compensate.

    Spending does have a role in the california's budget crisis, but its problems are mainly structural. If proposition 13 was repealed, California would have a tax structure thats similar to most states, higher property taxes with lower income and sales tax.
     
    #22 madmonkey37, Mar 5, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  3. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,444
    Likes Received:
    15,886
    How does this fix the problem though? Add $20B in property tax revenues and take away $20B in income and sales tax revenues and you're in the same boat you're in now.

    Worse yet, property values crashed in California - if the state was relatively more dependent on property taxes, the sudden revenue crunch they are facing would be even worse than it is now.
     
  4. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    2,499
    Likes Received:
    52
    It wouldn't fix the problem completely, but would give the state a lot more flexibility in dealing with the budget crisis. Even though housing prices crashed, California still has some of the highest property values in the country, combine that with the fact that California is the most populous state in the country, you have a revenue source that isn't fully tapped.

    Proposition 13 isn't the only structural problem in California has to deal with. Its referendum process makes the state fund programs by law without the flexibility to decrease funding to those programs when times are tough. Add the 2/3 rule which makes tax increases nearly impossible, especially in these times when the left and right are so polarized, and you have a situation that is pretty much unfixable.

    You can talk about cutting services all you want, but until these structural problems are taken care of, budget crisis will probably be the norm for california.
     
  5. langal

    langal Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,824
    Likes Received:
    91
    Is there some underlying sarcasm going here?

    California is some sort of bastion of conservatives?

    Prop 13 is the cause of the state's fiscal problems?

    Is that what people in Houston actually think?
     
  6. SunsRocketsfan

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    452

    no clue what the OPs original intent was but yes maybe it was sarcasm... :confused:

    I was shocked too to hear California being called conservative..
    Not sure where the OP lives but I am out here in San Diego in a conservative neighborhood but the state is FAR from being conservative. If that is what houston actually thinks you guys are definitely wrong.
     
  7. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    15,196
    Likes Received:
    2,196
    You guys don't understand that glynch is possibly the furthest left person on the board. To glynch, California is conservative, as is the entire US. California's budget problems stem from handing control of the budget to the people by referendum. Not surprisingly the people vote to get more and pay less, which doesn't work.
     
  8. TopsDrop

    TopsDrop Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    32
    I live in Texas...that is all.
     
  9. Refman

    Refman Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    312
    The bottom line here is that you are either stupid (which I do not believe), you are so pinned to ideology that you cannot see this objectively, or you are just being intentionally contrary.

    When the people in a state bear the highest tax burden in the nation and they are in the throws of a recession, you cannot simply say "let's raise taxes."

    I am reminded of the words blood and stone.
     
  10. SunsRocketsfan

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    452
    yup agreed..

    Looks like glynch disappeared anyways when i pressed him on explaining exactly which one of Regan's policies is causing the budget crisis California is in now. Also looks like he doesn't want to acknowledge that when Regan left the Governors office, California had over 500million in surplus which is even bigger today factoring in inflation.
     
  11. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,794
    Likes Received:
    3,005
    sunsrocketfan, since you have turned this into a praise reagan thread, how do you feel about the deficits he created on a national level?
     
  12. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596

    Hrmmmmmm
     
  13. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,794
    Likes Received:
    3,005

    he does it the entire thread, i'm not biased, reagan was freakin awesome man
     
  14. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    He does seem to do this consistently.
     
  15. SunsRocketsfan

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    452
    you guys seem to only want to read what you want. How did I turn this in to a Praise Regan thread??? The original poster made a few claims that Regan's policies is causing the huge debt and budget deficit in California. I called him out and asked for exactly which policies of Regan's is causing California's budget problems. Regan was governor here over 40 years ago. He left California with a surplus. I fail to see the connection of him being Governor 40 years ago and how that is causing our debt problems today. If you can explain please do so.

    The topic of the thread was Glnych made some ridiculous statements of Conservatives and Regan causing our budget mess in California. This is the topic at hand. If you want to talk about Regan's legacy as a President you can start a thread and discuss there. The OP brought up Regan I was only responding to his claims.

    You are the one that conveniently want's to change topics. I brought up several facts about Regan and the history of the California state legislature how it has been in Democrat's controls for the last 40 years and still is. Also not by a small margin but a huge margin. The OP is now missing in action.
     
  16. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,741
    Likes Received:
    39,402
    Wow. Check your sarcasm meter and then re-read my post.
     
  17. SunsRocketsfan

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    452
    Please read the entire thread before posting. Since you wanted to get yourself involved in this discussion please help clarify the OP's claims.

    OP Claims:
    -California's mess is caused by the conservatives and Regan's policies.

    HOW???
    California is not conservative and does not have conservative policies. Read the rest of the thread and you will see this. On top of this California's state legislature has been in the control of Democrats and Liberals for the last 40 years.
    The California State Legislature currently has a Democratic majority, with the Senate consisting of 25 Democrats and 15 Republicans; and the Assembly having 49 Democrats, 29 Republicans, 1 Independent, and 1 vacancy. Except for the period from 1995 to 1996, the Assembly has been in Democratic hands since the 1970 election (even while the governor's office has gone back and forth between Republicans and Democrats). The Senate has been in Democratic hands continuously since 1970.
    --------

    -OP Claims Prop 13 is one reason of a specific policy that is bankrupting the state. For those that don't know Prop 13 caps property tax at 1%.

    California as stated OVER AND OVER AGAIN has the highest tax burden of any state. You name the tax and it's the highest in California. We have one of the highest state income and sales taxes. Also OP failed to acknowledge that Prop 13 was eventually supported and passed by Jerry Brown when he was Governor of California. See my post on Brown. Brown is a Democrat and even bragged about passing Prop 13 claiming how he cut taxes for everyone. So the one single law and proposition that the OP has brought up that he claims is causing the state budget mess and blames on the conservatives was supported by the last Democratic governor of California (not counting Gray Davis since he was just a disgrace).

    So this is the topic of the thread. I have stuck to these points. If you want to discuss anything else you can do it elsewhere.
     
  18. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    17,813
    Likes Received:
    3,408

    California has conservative tax policies. Prop 13 and the 2/3 necessary to raise taxes are precisely right wing or "conservative" as used in recent years. I'm not saying SF is conservative. BTW Jerry Brown has been all over the map on the left right contiunum and has tried to go with whatever is popular at the moment. Prop 13 was a disaster and so is the handcuffing of the elected officials to rasie taxes when needed.

    Look you you have your facts wrong.

    California is not the highest taxed state.

    It is roughly 10th out of 50 states per capita. see http://www.census.gov/govs/statetax/05staxrank.html

    Many other states that do not have near the budget woes of CA are not that much lower either.
     
  19. SunsRocketsfan

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,234
    Likes Received:
    452
    Okay I really cant take you seriously if you want to keep calling California conservative. That is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard. If California is considered conservative then I fear the rest of the country is on the far right.

    Also way to go pulling a link from 2005. That is 5 years ago!!!!!!!!

    Here you go.
    HIGHEST INCOME TAX (okay California is 2nd now due to Hawaii recently passing it as number one)

    No. 2: California

    Top rate: 10.55%

    Applies to: Taxable income over $1 million.

    In February, the legislature adopted a 0.25% increase in all rates, retroactive to Jan. 1, taking the rate on income over $94,111 for a married couple and $47,055 for a single to 9.55%. On top of that, income over $1 million is hit with an extra 1% tax to fund mental health care, a change voters approved in 2004. The lawmakers passed the 0.25% increase for two years; Tuesday, voters rejected a budget package that would have extended it for another two.
    http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/20/st...-ten-highest_slide_3.html?thisSpeed=undefined

    HIGHEST SALES TAX
    States with the highest sales tax are: California (8.75%), Indiana (7%), Mississippi (7%), New Jersey (7%), Rhode Island (7%), Tennessee (7%), Minnesota (6.875%), Nevada (6.85%), Washington (6.5%), Texas and Illinois (6.25%).

    Okay if you want to round off all the tax burdens California is now in the top 5
    New Jersey residents paid 11.8%, topping the charts. New Yorkers were close behind, paying 11.7%, and Connecticut was third at 11.1%. The top 10 were rounded out by Maryland (10.8%), Hawaii (10.6%), California (10.5%), Ohio (10.4%). Vermont (10.3%), Wisconsin (10.2%) and Rhode Island (10.2%).

    http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

    So you are advocating we increase taxes so we are on the top of the list??? You want to tax it's residents even more??? How does that make any sense?? At the same time how EXACTLY IS CALIFORNIA CONSERVATIVE IF CALIFORNIA IS ON THE TOP 5 MOST TAXED STATES????? Please explain this. You are not making any sense here.

    In addition why are you blaming only conservatives and libertarians if it was Jerry Brown who eventually passed and supported Prop 13??? He is by no means a conservative.

    Also you haven't addressed how conservatives are responsible when the State Legislature has been in the control of the Democrats for the last 40 years with a huge majority.

    I think you need to recall your original statements and your ridiculous title to this thread.
     
  20. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    59,007
    Likes Received:
    36,581
    California's supermajority voting for budget matters gives the republicans there substantial power to frustrate budget matters - the whole thing turns into a big mess: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/the_politics_of_taxes_in_calif.html


     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now