I'm not running around in circles. I'm stating my opinion, and you're getting hung up on terminology. I clarify, and you want to focus on more terminology and the fact I needed to clarify. I don't know your purpose is in doing this, but it is a nice way to avoid having an actual basketball discussion. The thought never crossed my mind that he shouldn't do it. All three were in the rotation, and all three were playing well. You play the guys that give you best shot of winning at the end, and I have no problem with playing rookies that are performing. If you're questioning whether at the time I was thinking to myself he should put Yao or Rafer or Chuck back in the game, no I absolutely did not. I was happy he stuck with the lineup he did. I don't know what you're trying to get at with this "armchair coaching" bit. Informed fans can have a pretty good idea why coaches make certain decisions. I think I'll ask Jonathan Feigen or Fran Blinebury what they believe Adelman's opinion is on using Yao to defend Okur. They are accessible, and they have a pretty good idea what the coaches think about things. I'm pretty confident in what the answer would be, but whatever it is I'll post it here.
So then why is Boozer scoring 30 points even relevant to your argument? I did notice that whenever Hayes switched to match up on Boozer, Boozer missed tons of shots. I would consider Hayes an incredible defender. The only people who will give Hayes trouble are the PF that have a nice shooting touch and do not rely on open shots or positioning. Sure he isn't a monster shot-blocker, but he provides excellent post defense and team defense.
It all depends on our own conditions and mismatchups. If we have another interior defender like Marcus Camby, then we wouldn't need to worry about Yao leaving the interior open for penetration. Putting Yao on Okur, and putting Camby on Boozer would be the best way to go IMO in that situation. All I'm saying is, some guys make it out to be a golden rule to not put Yao on Okur under ANY circumstances, and I disagree with it. If you say we can't put Yao on Okur at three point line due to lack of interior D, then I agree, after all we don't have a shotblocker inside other than Yao. However, If you say Yao on Okur at the 3 point line is a permanant taboo because it will destroy our perimeter defense, then it's simply an overstatement. Sure, Yao will be a little slower to rotate to open three point shooters, but his ten feet vertical reach shadows shooters in advance. Also, our perimeter D must first allow shooters to be open for that to happen. So it's not an automatic mismatchup in favor of Jazz. However, when Yao is put on Boozer, it's an automatic huge mismatchup the Jazz can exploit over and over, and they did exploit that to the full extent. It doesn't make sense to fear more about Jazz shooters shooting open threes IF our defense allows them occasionally, when Boozer is MURDERING Yao right under our eyes in the low post time after time. Huge ONE on ONE mismatchup can be LETHAL in a ball game. If you choose to double Boozer then he can pass to open man, that's the equivalent of destroying our perimeter defense. Now I bother to respond only because you seem to asked a fair question. This discussion is way out of the scope of this thread. If you don't agree, then I'll rest my case.
Ok, Lets get this straight, so I say Hayes is a good defender, our best post defender, but he is not incredible. You say he is an incredible defender. what is your opinion is reason why Adelman is giving an incredible defender limited minutes?
durvasa: I see you are eager to make rules for Rick Adelman as a casual fan. You should approach Rick and tell him "It's a rule that you can never put Yao on Okur", and sees if he agrees with you or laughs at you. Forgive me to not have time to play with ya rule making armchair coaching, after all, I'm a just casual fan who realizes he cannot make rules for NBA coaches. Peace.
If Yao is assigned to a perimeter player, they will be open by default. He can't actually defend close, because they can easily dribble around him. Yes, even Okur. And I think you're really overstating the importance of height versus quickness for face up defense. Jump shooters 20+ feet away from the basket have no problem getting their shot off against Yao. You kept mentioning that Okur could shoot jumpers over Chuck Hayes because of the height disparity. Again, overstating the importance of height. As long as you can crowd up close to the player and get a hand in their face, they'll have a tough time getting off a good shot (see Bowen on Nowitzki, for instance). On the other hand, Yao standing 5 feet away from them won't make a difference. Further, you're underestimating how good Boozer is. Just compare his numbers against the Spurs to his numbers against us in the playoffs last year. He's not someone you can expect to shut down by just putting a good defensive PF on him. He's still an all-star, and he'll hurt you. It's not worth sacrificing the integrity of your team defense just for a better one on one matchup. No, I am eager to understand why coaches make certain decisions, and accordingly predict what strategy can be expected under different scenarios. In this case, I say we can expect Yao to guard Boozer instead of Okur regardless of our PF (unless that PF is even less mobile than Yao, but let's assume that's not the case). Somehow that offends you because I used the word "rule" to describe that expectation and therefore it is "armchair coaching" ... uh, whatever. I could just as easily call it "armchair coaching" when you say that Chuck shouldn't be starting because of such and such reasons. Again, you're getting hung up on terminology instead of the substance I sent a question into the Rockets beat writer about Adelman's view on this. As I wrote earlier, whatever his response may be I'll post it here. If it turns out I'm wrong (the main reason isn't Yao's lack of mobility but rather interior defense), then I'll own up to it.
Ben Wallace in his prime was an incredible defender. Dennis Rodman was an incredible defender. Chuck Hayes is nowhere near the level of Wallace or Rodman. These guys could not only defend, they could block shots and collect rebounds like there was no tomorrow. How many 20+ rebound games has Chuck had? Wallace could also DUNK the ball which made him a danger on the offensive end whenever they collapsed on the penetrator.
I see a lot of folks seem to think Hayes is a top defensive PF (i.e. top 5), so I will respond to all those posts with this one. One question...why would a top 5 defender at his position get no love from other teams when he is a free agent? We don't have Hayes for a minimal contract because he loves it here so much. No one else will break the bank for him, or even give him what we did IMO. As far as PF's who are better than Hayes defensively (6 boards, 1.1 spg, .6 bpg), let's start with the two who made All D teams over him last year: Duncan KG Let's go with those that got more All-D votes than him last year: Marion (10, 2, 1.5) B.Wallace (9, 1.4, 1.6) J.Oneal (7, .5, 2.2) Haslem (9, .7, .4) We are already at 6. And are y'all really going to argue that Hayes is a better defender than: R.Wallace McDyess (seriously, watch him play) K-Mart Bosh That put's you at 10. Now someone said Hayes is at worst top 15...maybe, maybe not. But even if you put him in the top 15, I guarentee the other 14 won't be so horrible on offense. When you are that bad on offense, you need to be an elite defender to warrant significant PT on a contending team. I appreciate what Hayes does and he is our best defensive option at PF (like that's really saying something...like us saying Alston is our best PG)...but let's not confuse ourselves and think he is one of the best in the league....damn what Morey says.
Haha, and you insist on creating BIGGER mismatchup in favor of the dangerous Carlos Boozer by putting Yao on him, that's like saying hm... we'd better put Earl Boykins on Micheal Jordan because he's gonna destroy you anyway. That is funny. Enough with this garbage, I'm out.
Chuck Hayes style of defense is pretty interesting. First off, he's only 6'5. And he'll barely get any blocks or steals during the game. He plays defense from moving his feat and playing straight-up solid defense. The best that he can do is LIMIT a superstar power forward and just keep them in check; he certainly can't shut them down completely. So, Morey saying that he's a top 5 post defender might be too generous. But Chuck won't have many games where the opposing 4 will completely dominate the inside. That's where he has importance. The reason Chuck was overlooked by teams is beyond me. Chuck is however highly unnoticed by the general basketball world. He's also the strangest player i've seen in awhile. He's a power guard at a guard's height, he has range inside 5 ft., and of course he has the weirdest free form i've seen. It's only on the Rockets that a player like this can thrive with his rebounding and defense. I would be surprised if Chuck got minutes on another team, not for the reason that he's a bad player, but I just don't see him integrating his game into a different atmosphere. Chuck is kinda like Bruce Bowen. Like Bruace, I assume other teams believe Chuck would be reduced to a scrub on another team.
Did the whole "sacrifice integrity of perimeter defense" part slip your mind? Sigh ... any argument comparing Yao to Earl Boykins and Boozer to Jordan really isn't worth responding to anyways. Good night.
Good post, I only wanted to add to it that he does actually get quite a few steals. He is 45th in the NBA in steals with 49 and if you restrict it to forwards he's 18th He's also 19th in steals per 48 minutes. Defensively the only thing he doesn't do a lot of is blocks. And even that seems to have improved a bit from last year. (a really little bit, but every little bit does help!) And Durvasa.. the panda dude doesn't seem to want to talk basketball, only semantics. I would just ignore him.
Feigen, who's basketball opinion I respect, says that he personally thinks putting Yao on Okur should be an option, though he doesn't rule out the possibility that Yao could do a better job against Boozer than he did in the playoffs. If a smart guy like Feigen thinks it should be an option, then I'll stop ruling it out as a possibility. My bad. I still don't think it's a good idea. As to the coach's reasoning he says they don't want Yao guarding the 3-point line because he doesn't defend all the way out to the perimeter and if he does it limits his rebounding. No mention of "interior defense", so apparently that's not the overriding concern. Pretty much what I expected there. Here is Jonathan Feigen's full response on the issue of how the Rockets should guard Utah: [rquoter] I have a question on the use of Yao defensively against Utah. Why do the coaches use Yao to defend Boozer and our PFs (when Yao is in the game) to defend Okur? Both Adelman and JVG seem to prefer this approach, and I was wondering if you knew firsthand their rationale in doing this. Also do you think we'd be better served having Yao guard Okur and letting our quicker PFs matchup against Boozer? (They prefer Yao not have to defend a 3-point shooter. He does not go all the way out to 24 feet well and if he does, that takes him far from rebounding position. I think that is a logical way to approach games, but when the Jazz gets going with pick-and-rolls using Boozer, I would rather use Hayes on Boozer and make Okur show he is hitting. Then it becomes on the team as a whole to pick up the rebounding slack. Boozer is their best scorer. Hayes is the Rockets' best defender of 'bigs'. Seems to make sense. That said, before the knee injury last season, Yao was defending pick-and-roll much better than after and in the playoffs. I would not rule out him doing a better job than he did in the playoffs. I just think putting him on Okur should be an option. -- Jonathan) [/rquoter]
because you were the one who hijacked it!!! as if this "IDEA" of yours is something ingenious YOU haven't come up with many real game stats to back up your opinion, all you state over and over is one thing, well, heck if something doesn't work, try something else!!! just stick yao on okur and everything will be better. This is all you are saying, and the only reason you can come up with because yao is tall to gain some amount of respect you need to actually dish out some info. if you want to be above casual fan status, say something.
I've never said I'm above casual fan status, unlike Durvasa, I'm not making rules for NBA coaches. In fact, I explicitly mentioned that I'm only a casual fan that has no business deciding rules. I see why you are confused, you don't know what you are talking about, you don't even know my position well enough. My position is, because of our serious lack of interior defense against penetration, Yao can't leave the post to play on the perimeter. However, if we had an interior defender other than Yao, I think it would be better to pair Yao against Okur and let that pf cover Boozer. Since we don't have that defender, then we have no choice but to stick Yao against Boozer because if not Yao would have to leave the interior to cover jump shooter Okur. Some disagreed and say that even if we have an interior defender beside Yao, it's still not OK to play Yao against Okur because Yao will destroy our perimeter defense, and that is not worth it. That's what I have a problem with. I believe that Yao wouldn't destroy our perimeter defense just because he's a little slower, that is an overstatement. Guards blow by guards all the time, the guards that get blown past isn't called a perimeter defense destroyer. Missing an ossasional open three rotation hurt a little, but that's better than getting killed in the post. That's one point. Another important point is, strategically teams always sacrificed perimeter defense in favor of more post defense. Contrary to what Durvasa believes, it's not a rule for coaches to sacrifice post defense for more perimeter defense. Shaq commanded double teams, and double teams means giving up perimeter defense. That's how shooters made team pay by doubling Shaq. So, traditionally, it is to sacrifice perimeter defense in favor of more post defense. It follows that Hayes should've covered Boozer, and if necessary, double Boozer and give up perimeter D, and Yao should've covered Okur. I already expressed that, however, since Yao covering Okur means giving up interior defense against penetration which is too much to pay we had no choice but to stick Yao on Boozer. Hope that cleared things up. Damn it's cold here and my fingers are freezing, gotta go hybernate again.
We're all casual fans, and we all have our strong opinions. In that past, I believe you've said no other contending team could have Chuck as a starter. That's your opinion, which may be valid, but you've asserted it as if it was fact. Is that not "making rules for NBA coaches"? Sure it is. And it would be stupid of me to dismiss it on that basis.
One last time, I'm totally cool of you having strong opinions, I have mine too. My opinion on Chuck starting is about "should' or "should not". I didn't say it's a rule for the teams, or for any head coach in the league to not start Hayes. It's on a whole new level though, for you to assert that Rick Adelman has the same defensive rule as you do. That's a different dimension concerning "is" or "is not". The two aren't even close. Excuse me, I didn't feel like having a discussion with someone who's so dense on his opinions. I mean, why talk if someone is so adamant about his view. Let him have his view it's not like it's going to affect me. I have better things to do than that.
Explain this post: [rquoter]Hayes is a decent bench player, that's why he can't play more than 23 minutes competing against an over the hill JHo, and also why he's treated as an insurance plan in case we can't get another pf in trades. Don't get your hope high up, or you may get disappointed. The Rockets aren't considering Hayes as a starting pf.[/rquoter] Where was your proof that the Rockets weren't considering it?! Hmmm? Again ... semantics. I've explained many times over what I meant by that -- I'm not actually "asserting" what the coaches believe, I just have a strong opinion on it. That's why I left open the possibility that he'd do differently and wrote that I'd be "shocked" if it happened. If it was truly a strict assertion, as you have stubbornly interpreted it despite my several attempts to clarify, that wouldn't have been necessary. You asked for some evidence on what the coach's thinking is. From Jonathan Feigen: [rquoter] I'd like to follow up on your response concerning defending Utah, if you don't mind. I think a couple other factors might also be rotating to open shooters in the half court and finding the shooters n transition. Yao would have a tough time doing either if matched up against a perimeter player like Okur. I'm trying to determine if the overriding concern for the coaches is (1) what they lose in terms of interior defense / rebounding by moving Yao away from the basket or (2) Yao's general difficulties guarding on the perimeter. If it's mainly (1), this is a problem that could potentially be addressed by a more imposing defensive presence at PF. If it's (2), then they'd probably keep Yao on Okur regardless of the PF. Any thoughts on which might be the bigger concern for them? I'm thinking (2) but I'd like a more informed opinion. Thanks again. (Actually, it is easier in transition if he is assigned to Okur because Okur is assigned to him. In transition, teams often have players in similar circumstances stay in transition defense with the player assigned to defend them. There are some help responsibilities even when defending the 3-point arc. You don't want anyone standing out there like a lamppost doing nothing else. Yao, however, has trouble getting back to his man quickly enough. Both coaches cited Yao's difficulties defending the 3-point arc for the assignment on Boozer, rather than Okur. That's why, when Yao was out on Sunday, they happily switched the assignments and kept Hayes on Boozer when Hayes was in the game.-- Jonathan)[/rquoter] That should put an end to this. Feigen's personal opinion is that Yao on Okur should be an option, and he doesn't think it would hurt our transition as much as I do. He makes good points there. But as I suspected, both coaches cited Yao's difficulties guarding the perimeter as the reason for his assignment to Boozer. It didn't have to do with the PF. That's all I ever meant, but when people get caught up in arguments over semantics the actual intent of a post can fly over their heads. Time to move on to the thread topic now ... There's a good chance Chuck won't start against Indiana, according to the Chronicle. But it seems like Adelman is now open to changing the starting lineup depending on the matchups, so it may not be a permanent demotion.
Not quite correct... rebounds per 36 minutes: Landry: 13.4 Hayes: 10.2 Scola: 8.8 net possessions (reb+stl-to) per 36 minutes: Landry: 12.2 Hayes: 10.7 Scola: 8.0 Extra possessions = extra scoring opportunities for the team, no matter what anyone says about stats not proving value. I would expect that Landry's stats come down a bit as he gets more minutes...the sample size is a bit small to evaluate rebs/36. http://www.wagesofwins.com/AllPlayersMid0708.html Wins Produced/48 Landry 0.661 Hayes: 0.198 Scola: 0.068 Again, Landry outperforms everyone, but .661 is not sustainable over time. The best players in the league typically average between 0.300 and 0.450 over a full season. Usage Rate -- a good way to rate who can get their own shots: Landry: 19.1 Scola: 19.1 Hayes: 8.0 PPG/36 Landry: 19.4 Scola: 13.9 Hayes: 5.0 http://www.82games.com/0708/0708HOU1.HTM W/L based on +/- when in the game and Net +/- per 48 Landry: 6/5, 54.5%: 2.6 Hayes: 23/20, 53.5%: 3.3 Scola: 22/22, 50%: 2.8 So....no matter who's in the game the Rockets basically outscore the other team 50-55% of the time by about 2-3 points. Apparently, no matter what their individual stats show, the overall effect is the same! Anyway, Landry should definitely get some extra minutes to see what he can do over the long haul. If he succeeds, Chuck will keep seeing his minutes become more situational.
