Great post! I think the mental part of the game is far more underestimated than any other part of the game - with the lone exception being injuries. Ralph's confidence was shot in '86 in game 6 in Boston after he beat the crap out of Schisting in H-town, but the Boston crowd got to him and ruined his career far prior to his knees ever giving up on him. IMHO, Rockets are the best (bar none) team on paper this year. Can they beat the injury bug? You guess is as good as mine. At least we don't have to battle Bud Selig (not that David Stern & friends are any better).
Yao is a damnnnn good players. I think alot of people get lost & think hes not that great because he is considered "soft" Well we are just fans if you look at it in a players point of view I'm sure they will tell you he is a force & a great great player.
What debate? I like T-Mac and all but Kobe has three rings and five finals apperances and an MVP. That's like comparing Miller Lite with Shiner Bock. They're both good, but one is clearly better.
Kobe is good, but seriously you can't use the rings argument when you only win because you had the best player in the league on your team. The rings argument only works with guys who actually win as the best on their team. It's like me saying that Pippen is better than Dr J because he has 6 rings. Yeah he has 6 rings, but he only won because he had the best player in the league on his side. Yeah he won them and those players in MJ and Shaq needed Pipp or Kobe, but the fact remains is that you have much less to prove when you win as the hands down best on the team.
Judging by your forum name, I can't honestly expect you to be objective here but facts are facts... - During the 3 Laker championships, Shaq wasn't the best player -- he was the co-best player, meaning Kobe was just as responsible 50/50 for carrying the load as he was. In comparison, Tracy has had Yao, and at least two of those seasons both were healthy in the playoffs. Kobe could do it with Shaq; Tracy has not done it with Yao. Similar situation between players, different results. - Kobe, last year, carried his team to the number one seed in the most competitive Western Conference in recent league history. He then proceeded to take his team to the Finals. The fact that he had Gasol and Odom is a moot point because they're overrated. In comparison, Tracy was offered the same opportunity with Yao down last season and succumbed in the first round. Moreover, he was not a big part of their regular season success because his stats were very subpar; I attribute it more to the overall play of the team. Similar situations between players, different results. - Jordan and Pippen are not 50/50 in their responsibilites. Clearly the championship Bulls were Jordan's Bulls. Those recent three championship Lakers teams were Shaq and Kobe's Lakers. You can't compare Pippen to Kobe. Pippen was a great role-player, perhaps the greatest role-player ever, but he is not a superstar like Tracy and Kobe are. - In conclusion, it's not about the rings. It's about what they did and achieve in their similar situations. When Kobe had the most dominant center in the league, he won championships. When he was alone, he won an MVP and carried his team to the Finals. T-Mac hasn't done sh_t, and frankly, I wish I wasn't right about this. I like McGrady more and I definately hate the Lakers, but facts are facts and until proven otherwise, any other opinion would be subjective.
I disagree in three areas: 1. 2000s Western Conference was still pretty tough and in fact teams at the top won more games. I will even say the teams at the top were much better. 02-03 had two Western teams at 60 wins and one at 59 victories. 01-02 had one team over 60 wins and two at 58. Teams included: San Antonio, Portland, Sacramento, Dallas, Utah, Minnesota, Houston (later on), and Seattle. The West has been tough since the early 90s with at least 4 to 5 teams who could win the championship. 2. Those LA Teams were clearly dominate mainly, because Shaq...since he was the best player on the team, because he typically lead in scoring and rebounds. Also, he won all 3 Finals MVPs in a landslide, here are his numbers below (courtesy of NBA.com): 2000 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-2 victory over the Indiana Pacers and the franchise’s first NBA Championship since 1988. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 43 points, 19 rebounds in Game #1, 40 points, 24 rebounds in Game #2 and 41 points, 12 rebounds in Game #6. 2001 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-1victory over the Philadelphia 76ers and the franchise’s second consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 44 points, 20 rebounds and five assists in Game #1, 28 points, 20 rebounds and nine assists in Game #2 and 34 points, 14 rebounds in Game #4. 2002 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks to lead the Lakers to a sweep of the New Jersey Nets and the franchise’s third consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 36 points, 16 rebounds and four blocks in Game #1, 40 points, 12 rebounds and eight assists in Game #2, 35 points, 11 rebounds and four blocks in Game #3. http://www.nba.com/history/finalsmvps.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquille_O'Neal#Playoffs/ Looking at Kobe's numbers in the 3 Finals victories and 1 Finals lost and this year's Finals, he was more of a Pippen than a Jordan. In fact, he was injured for good bit of 1st Finals and pretty mortal in next 4. Pippen wasn't a superstar, like T-Mac or Kobe, but that doesn't mean they are any closer to MJ, Shaq, or Dream when it comes to winning titles and domination. Both are much closer to players, like Barkley and David Robinson. As far as T-Mac, of course he hasn't done anything playoffs, he hasn't been on a good enough team to make to the 2nd round. If you look at his rosters in 02-03 (Detroit), 04-05 (Dallas), and 07-08 (playoff rosters) compare them against his opponents. He has more times than not been on a team that was a weaker team.
not to pile on but Kobe is better than Tmac period. You can just tell by the way he plays the game. Tmac is just as much if not more gifted naturally than Kobe is, but kobe work ethic (not to say tmac's ethic is bad) is insane and his mental approach to the game is amazing. Kobe is relentless in his attacks to the basket, despite having an above average jump shot. Kobe gets to the line what around 10 times a game? sure he may get the benefit of the calls because he is a superstar in the league but he puts the refs in a position to make a call because he attacks the basket. the biggest knock a lot of us rockets fans have on tmac is this, and JVG, heck even Clyde has said it over and over the more tmac drives and attacks the basket the chances of the Rockets having a good play happen goes up dramatically. He settles way too often to what the defense gives him instead of taking what he wants like Kobe does. I would trade tmac in an instant if Kobe was on the other end of a deal
Another funny thing is, Shaq in alot of those games had more assists and score more points with less shot attempts.
doesn't prove anything...yes, Shaq had the better numbers in the FINALS, but we all know the East was a joke back then (Philly, New Jersey (twice)...please. Kobe was the best player in the Western Conference finals (which was the REAL FINALS). Lakers never would have made it past Portland, Sacramento and the Spurs if KOBE did not step up and carry the team in crucial games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant#Playoffs/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant#Playoffs/ I just don't what it is, but seems that Shaq's numbers are higher across the board over the course of the playoffs. Lakers would never made past 1st Round with Shaq.
That doesn't prove squat. Kobe had to defer to Phil's strategy because the opposition was usually at a weaker point from the center position. If they had strong guards and a weak center, you obviously dump the ball to Shaq. Let alone that Kobe at the time was in his early 20's and Shaq and the other vets were near or over 30, for chemistry's sake you can't let Kobe take all the shots. When Shaq left ( and even before Shaq left ) Kobe could clearly score 30+ a game. His numbers prove it, but moreso, his success proves it. I'll say it and I'll say it again: You cannot compare T-Mac to Kobe. Hell, you'll have a hard time even debating T-Mac against Vince Carter. T-Mac is clearly second tier in the class of superstar guards. Here are the ones you can make a strong case that have had better careers than T-Mac: First Tier Superstar Guards: - Kobe, Iverson, Lebron, D-Wade And here's T-Mac's class... Second Tier Superstar/Or Borderline Sueprstar Guards: - T-Mac, Carmelo, Vince Carter, Redd, Josh Howard If Kobe had been in our 2005 team and 2007 team ( Dallas, and first series vs. Utah ), no way we would have gotten eliminated in the first round with Yao as his teammate. Tracy puts up some pretty numbers but he lacks something that Kobe clearly has. I want to be proven wrong.
I'm confused, most coaches used that strategy with Shaq (Brian Hill, Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Phil Jackson, and Pat Riley), because Shaq was averaging 26+ points a game for the most of his career. And, his numbers came against the likes of Ewing, David Robinson, Dream, and other pretty good centers from the 90. No matter the opponent, the strategy was always something, like get "Shaq the ball, because he was the best player on the team usually." It's not really strategy, but kind of obvious. Because, defering to Kobe means lower FG% and wild contested 3 pointers. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=614/ http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=110/ I'll say it and I'll say it again: You cannot compare T-Mac to Kobe. Hell, you'll have a hard time even debating T-Mac against Vince Carter. T-Mac is clearly second tier in the class of superstar guards. Here are the ones you can make a strong case that have had better careers than T-Mac: First Tier Superstar Guards: - Kobe, Iverson, Lebron, D-Wade And here's T-Mac's class... Second Tier Superstar/Or Borderline Sueprstar Guards: - T-Mac, Carmelo, Vince Carter, Redd, Josh Howard If Kobe had been in our 2005 team and 2007 team ( Dallas, and first series vs. Utah ), no way we would have gotten eliminated in the first round with Yao as his teammate. Tracy puts up some pretty numbers but he lacks something that Kobe clearly has. I want to be proven wrong.[/QUOTE] T-Mac is closer to Allen Iverson and D-Wade class than he is to Melo and Redd and Vince. He's been very consistent and unlike those players he has very diverse game, he is phenominal passer (better than everyone excpet maybe Lebron...but gives him the King a run for his money)...I imagine if he weren't so prone to injury and was a bit quicker...he could easily play PG. He sort of already does in certain situations. He is actually a better mid-range shooter than Kobe....go over to NBA Hotzones. Look at their stats from over the years and T-Mac is clearly a better jumpshooter.
Yeah, but did any of those championships came against legit centers? No, they came in an era when he was the only good center. Just because Shaq went against Todd McCullogh, and you obviously had to give him the ball 90% of the game, doesn't make Kobe a sidekick. If, in the rare event that Shaq got in trouble, Kobe was there to bailed him out. I don't even know where you're getting at. Are you saying Kobe = Pippen? That's an insult to Kobe. You put Tracy or Pippen in those Lakers teams and I'm not sure they win championships. You put Kobe with the 2005, 2007 Rockets and they go past the first round.
First point is somewhat moot. Because, that wasn't his fault he didn't have competition. Plus, if you look at Shaq's numbers against the best teams in the league or in playoffs...you can see they don't drop off very much. Even in the sweep against Houston, Shaq just averaged meager 28 ppg and 12 rebs 6.25 ast against Olajuwon, outside of his lone appearance in the Miami series. This and the 2004 Finals are his worst. Take a look Kobe's best finals. You'll see whose the more productive player was. I would say Kobe was one of the main reasons the Lakers lost in Finals 04 and 08. While, he missed 3 games against in NBA 2000. Yes, performance wise in the NBA Finals, Kobe has had numbers that look more like Scottie Pippen's than they do both MJs, Shaq, and Dream. I never said Kobe wasn't great, I just said he wasn't the same class as the four players above when comes to the NBA Finals. Just look at the numbers. Pippen and T-Mac could make up the lost for Kobe, because they are better team players in they don't necessarily have to take alot of shots to be effective. They're both great passers, Kobe is mediocre and at times just outright wild on court.
And skill. yao can make life tough for other bigs. he has pretty good awarness of the plays around him. he knows when to pass and when to force it. he has a pretty silky smooth jump shot that can force other bigs to comeout the paint to defend him. he has a variety of great post moves that makes life tough for anyone defending him. it's not just his height or his bulk. dont sell him short.
