Buyouts for Francis, Webber ongoing, and may interest Rox.

I don't see the resemblence at all. Francis is a combo guard who never had a knack for distributing, protecting the ball, and running the team. Those are Rafer's strengths. But Francis is a natural scorer from multiple spots on the floor and great finisher, whereaas Rafer only has one marginally efficient shot, an open 3 point look, which at times even that isn't there for him making him a total non-factor offensively.

 

Sir JC used a classic style to soften up RocketsMac to his point. He was complimentary to some of the ideas that RocketsMac has been trying to say. Then, he added some other points of his own.

Heres the breakdown:

RocketsMac doesn't want Francis because he's afraid that chemistry would breakdown. No change=good. He's afraid of change. Especially because the current chemistry and hard work being put into the team by the current roster is yeilding so much success.

Pro -Francis-Fans seem to ignore the importance of chemistry OR they realize that he's going to come cheap. Meaning, we can cut him if he becomes a problem. Pro-Francisisisisisis also realize that if he is signed, it won't be a guess. He'll go thru questioning, etc. to make sure he's a good fit. It's also a low risk - high reward deal, with a hedge on cutting Steve if he acts up.

I'm obviously pro-Francis signing, but I do understand the chemistry risk. The real question is this:

If we add Francis and the team doesn't gel with him, would simply cutting Francis solve the problem? Or would the imbalance be permanant?

Another important question:

How long would it take for Steve to acclimate to this team and his role if he was signed?

Economically it makes sense. The excitement of adding Francis would not be high in most places, but Houstonians remember how good he was in Houston. Memory of his earlier years might put some butts in the seats. He was popular in Houston. I remember his game around Xmas where we beat the Lakers. He was awesome at times. When Van Gundy came in, he played Van Gundy ball. We know he can be a positive addition. Economically, is the price worth the health risk?

 

this is one beautiful post don, great job..

that's exactly what I was trying to say. I guess I used a couple of bad examples and some people (Nike & others) misunderstood me.. I believe in "if it aint broke, dont fix it" thing and I really dont like Francis as a person (attitude wise). the guy refused to play in a city because he doesn't want to be in Canada. he skipped a game to watch the superbowl (or whatever that thing was).. he might be a great talent, but he got some attitude problems and I am not willing to sacrifice the whole team by taking the risk of bring him in.. like don said, he might have a permanent effect on the team and he might mess everything up. now u would ask: "why not take the risk?", now if we were 13-26, I would gladly take it. but considering our success right now, I wouldn't make a move like that UNLESS Francis agrees on SJC's 5 points.. but if it came down to me, I wouldn't do it even if he did agree on all 5 because it's just me, and I dont like change. I really dont. even in real life, if I know a restaurant is good, I never like to go try another one because it might be really bad and I might end up going "dang, I should've gone to the restaurant I knew was good". many people tell me it's not right and I have to try things, but that's just my personality I guess.

now back to the whole 04-05 Minnesota thing, I think many people misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that the same team that went to the WCF the year before ended up not going to the playoffs the next year despite having the same exact lineup. disregarding the injuries (which are part of the game and didn't really have that huge of an effect), this implies the great effect of having a team that's willing to work with each other. the Wolves had great talent that proved to be successful the year before, but they screwed up the next year due to conflicts and miscommunication, or what I like to call "bad chemistry". and that resulted in the disassembling of the team; Cassell was traded the next year, Spree wasn't signed again, and they brought it new faces to work with Garnett. Francis would be the little spark that would cause a similar scenario IMO, this might not happen, but this is what I think and I am entitled to my own opinion..

I guess the Minny example was a bad example though, that was my bad. the NY example is more valid to a certain extent.. and another misconception might be the definition of "chemistry". I dont mean chemistry as in "knowing how to play together on the court" which is the popular definition in the world of basketball, I am talking about "chemistry" as in chemistry between a husband his wife. in basketball, this would translate into "not having problems with each other and willing to collaborate with each other to reach a common goal". it might be the wrong definition, but that's what I was talking about..

guys, I apologize, I know I seem a little confused (and confusing as a matter of fact), but I just had a rough day.. I will be back 2 my normal RocketsMac self who loves the team and loves to hate on Luther Head.. now I need to get some sleep to come back full strength..

 

There's no question that adding Francis to the team would be disruptive, at least in the short term. Doing something like this is always a risk. We could compare adding Francis to adding Bonzi. Has that been disruptive? Certainly. Has it hurt the team? Not that I can tell. They have handled his antics well. It's hard to imagine Steve Francis causing anything like the chaos accompanying Wells. Of course Rafer, for example, doesn't see Wells as a threat to his position, but Francis could be. We're all eager to add a new point to the team, and if he were to supplant Alston, because he was an improvement, few would lose sleep over it. Francis never seemed like a realistic option, and may not be, but if he's really bought out, and wants to play with Houston, not taking the chance on him would be a mistake, in my opinion. You have to take the risk and hope it works.

 

Fair points, but let's say we take on Francis and he doesn't work out for us over a 10-game stretch where we go say, 5-5, instead of 7-3, or whatever we would have been sans Francis.

Those 2 or so games we lose by having him smear chemistry could be very detrimental as far as seeding/homecourt goes in the playoffs.

Merely getting to the playoffs isn't the big picture, as 8 out of 15 teams reach the playoffs in the West. Seeding and homecourt will be at a premium when you have SA, Dal, Phx, etc. to worry about. We can't afford to blow any games because we want to try out a guy who is a 50/50 proposition.

Ideally, we would have Francis in the offseason to go through a full camp to get used to his teammates. I just don't think he will fit in well with the current roster. I'm also not willing to lose a game or two just to see if he can work out.

Bottom line: I don't think Francis is the difference between us being better than SA, Dal and PHX. If I thought he were, then I'd be all for signing him.

I think Steve is old/mature enough to realize that he's not going to win by being "the man". I just question whether he is able to be a role player. He's never been a good defender, so I can't really envision him succeeding at that, even if his mind is set on doing it.

 

A major warning sign for bad chemistry is when someone comes along demanding a starter's role...

Francis will be like Bonzi in that he's not a starter and if JVG sends him home the team will just keep on keeping on.

http://www.dwighthoward.com/dwighthoward010306.htm

 

IF we got a shot at bringin Stevie back, with an economical contract, and dont - we're idiots!
Chemistry shemistry... I gotta believe Francis is the BEST option at PG to bring in. He knows the system, he knows many of the players, and most importantly... he now knows he can be replaced. I gotta believe the 'post trade' life of Stevie has been a humbling experience. I think at this point, Francis would be more than willing to defer to Yao or TMAC, and would even be far more receptive to JVG.
Alston is not carryin the load on a consistant basis and we need help at the point! Otherwise, regardless of how the regular season rolls, we're gonna flashback to the Matt Maloney playoffs of years ago. Just cause the Rox are playing well enough to overcome Raefers shortcomings, does not mean you ignore the need to upscale this glaring achilles heel.
Bring back Francis and let Raefer mature in a backup role.

 

If the Pistons get Weber, we could make this trade: Houston Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Bob Sura
6-5 from Florida State
No games yet played in 2006/07
Bonzi Wells
6-5 SG from Ball State
6.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 1.2 apg in 21.7 minutes
Incoming
Dale Davis
6-11 C from Clemson
2.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.3 apg in 12.0 minutes
Carlos Delfino
6-6 SG from Argentina (Foreign)
5.0 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 15.3 minutes
Jason Maxiell
6-6 PF from Cincinnati
6.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.3 apg in 14.7 minutes
Change in team outlook: +6.7 ppg, +5.3 rpg, and +0.5 apg.


Detroit Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Dale Davis
6-11 C from Clemson
2.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.3 apg in 12.0 minutes
Carlos Delfino
6-6 SG from Argentina (Foreign)
5.0 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 15.3 minutes
Jason Maxiell
6-6 PF from Cincinnati
6.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.3 apg in 14.7 minutes
Incoming
Bob Sura
6-5 from Florida State
No games yet played in 2006/07
Bonzi Wells
6-5 SG from Ball State
6.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 1.2 apg in 21.7 minutes
Change in team outlook: -6.7 ppg, -5.3 rpg, and -0.5 apg.



Successful Scenario

 

If you think that getting three scrubs for Wells and Sura (and having to cut one player) is a "successful scenario", then .

 

Webber is now a piston - http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=123210

 

No misunderstanding here. You just really are talking in circles. Or zig zags.

If you actually believed that, you wouldn't have proposed trading our starting point guard + picks or our 6th man for a guy who on a good day could be described as marginal (Marko Jaric) within a week. You wouldn't be looking for every opportunity to post "FIRE GUNDY" when the team has a top 5 record and has played half of its games missing either the premier center or a premier wing.

Thus, I call you on it.

Ah. The truth does come out. And you're entitled to that.

OK. Fair enough.

So your previous statement is actually worthless. Do you just like to see yourself type?

No. It was just a poor point. Our first year under Van Gundy, he took a flier on Charles Oakley, one of his favorite players ever mind you; things didn't work out, and we cut him. It'd be the same situation here. You looked at one season in a vaccuum - catalyzed by missing the playoffs because of Cassell's injury, a superstar who didn't want the label, multiple arrogant veterans who didn't like each other all that much, and a coach who couldn't control them.

By your logic, we can look at the fallout of the Kobe/Shaq Lakers' era, and the losing season they endured after trading Shaq, and talk about the fragility of chemistry. I think they're happy with their 3 rings, though they would've liked more. You can point to that, I can point to Van Gundy's Knicks acquiring a volatile Sprewell fresh out of Choke-gate and going to the Finals. The Bulls didn't shy away from acquiring a psychotic Rodman for pennies on the dollar, and ended up winning 72 games and 3 more championships.

An even more relevant example would be Vernon Maxwell. Not an acquisition per se, but he sure ruined the Rockets hopes of winning.

The point is, there are plenty of counter-examples of teams acquiring volatile players to put them over the top. It happens on a fairly regular basis - just in the last few years, Miami went out and got nutjobs in Payton, Walker, and Williams all the way to a ring. Detroit wouldn't have won their ring with a midseason acquisition of probably the most volatile players of the 00's in Rasheed Wallace.

There's no misunderstanding. It was just a bad point.

You go out of your way to look to hate on a player? What a fan you are. That right there tells me all I needed to know about your ability to objective.

 

guys this aint a hard choice, if we can, then get francis, he'll be wit the team in practice and if he cant mesh wit them then get rid of him or bench him until he does. He doesnt have to start and he can come in if our pg is not too hot. Like everyone said, he knows the team and the coach and would probably try his best for the team he did so well wit. There is more positive than negative here. He could really be a turning point in changing us to a championship capable team. My only worry is that his injury will change his game or hurt his game in some way.

 

umm- did you just come in here and ignore EVERYTHING that has been said? maybe that is why you completely disregard the big point of chemistry.. or the fact that it would be just weird for TMac...

 

I'm a little concerned about the chemistry too, but I'm confident Van Gundy can handle any issues that arise. Personally, I don't think it would be weird for TMac. If TMac wants to win, he'll understand that with Francis coming off the bench or backing him up as a SG, the Rockets will have a much better shot at a title.

Whether SF is better than Alston at PG is something Van Gundy will have to decide, but honestly, I don't see why TMac should have any serious issues with this since it is his team (and Yao's) and if TMac thinks SF is taking too many shots, SF will most likely get benched. If TMac he doesn't want to play with SF, then we probably won't get SF. I just don't see either of those things happening.

 

well.. if he does come here... he already knows JVG's playbook. I actually feel sorry for the guy.. I really liked stevie.

 

well we know that the superbowl won't be in houston anytime soon... I'm pretty sure JVG would like Steve back

 

To get Steve for next to nothing? That's a no brainer.

 

Of course you go for Francis.

 

reading this informative thread is a revelation ...

the bb ignorant are so clearly defined. of course yah say yes to either player at those prices.

 

The main reason Gundy will be open to Stevie now is that he will be an "ex-Knick".....