Bush: Yesterday, "Musharraf truly believes in democracy."

Exactly. The threat of Islamic groups seizing power in an election should Musharraf lose power isn't really that great in Pakistan. It also isn't that big of step down anyway. The fear of that happening is by no means excuse enough to support a dictator who's seizing more and more power all the time.

 

Governments can and have been subverted by zealots who achieve popular acceptance by claiming the moral high ground while sanctioning duplicitous and even violent means behind the scenes. (like Republicans?)

Now I'm no expert on Pakistan but it would seem ripe for a particularly charismatic cleric to galvanize the masses into a religious fervor. Religious leaders are about the only entities that can claim dominion over tyrants.

Maybe this popular uprising of lawyers will capture the peoples imagination by demanding democracy and the rule of law. More power to them!

The real problem is that you wouldn't even have to take control of the government, all you need to do is infiltrate the nuclear security system and sneak one device into a container bound for Long Beach. Strict military order is the only protection. But certainly I wouldn't mind if it were subject to a secular democaracy. Remember though , Pakistan and Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan let the cat out of the bag under Pervez Musharraf before he became our war on terror ally.

 

this just doesn't apply to pakistan. there are absolutely no indicators that allow this possibility.

i guess we only view muslim countries through the paradigm of iran. iran is shia. shia'ism is much more of a clergy and hence they are more disposed to a 'religious leader' ruling it. pakistan isn't similar.

secondly the shah brutally suppressed all opposition. thankfully that hasn't been the history of pakistan no matter how much musharraf would love that. there are credible opposition groups which have significant support regardless of the recent clampdowns.

thirdly when the revolution did occur there was a power vacuum due to the previous point. in pakistan if musharraf was over thrown it would be by other military leaders. if there was a democratic election either the bhutto or sharif would win. undoubtedly.

they are demanding democracy and rule of law. however we're supporting musharraf because he is 'doing more for democracy than any previous modern leader' which is ironic since he successfully orchestrated a coupe on a democratic government. he rigged the elections in 02. he has now de facto martial law and packed the judiciary and shut down the media and sacked the judiciary and jailed the secular and the non secular opposition.

people are protesting. the media was properly reporting so he shut them down. the judiciary wasn't taking it so he sacked them. how else can they demand democracy and rule of law? they are. yet we are supporting the other side. which might even, according to you, be good for american interests. but this rhetoric of we want to spread democracy and help democracy is bullsh!t. as is the rhetoric about 'they just aren't ready for democracy'.

you forget that the pakistani military is very professional and credible for a nation of its status. and i know we think by watching 24 that stealing nukes is a joke but i don't think this is a credible fear. plus don't worry we've put in a 100 mil over the last few years to improve their security.

secondly i don't see why it matters if your sensibilities are comforted by its 'secular' democracy. if the majority of any nation don't care for french styled secularism, why is it something we should want for them? this isn't to say i wouldn't personally prefer it. but i think its incredibly kipling esque to state that we wouldn't 'mind a secular democracy'.

incidentally the religious parties have been allied with musharraf until recently. in fact without them he could not have been re-elected president last month.

 

The fringe Islamist element in Pakistan is a loud and violent minority, but not a serious political threat. The role of clerics can no doubt lead to communal violence and rioting (see: Ahmadiyya riots after Mawdudi decree), but there really hasn't been any evidence of this momentum manifesting itself in any shape at the polls. Nothing in Pakistan's pathetic history really gives much reason for such a threat.

 

This is exactly why we should elect Obama so he can carry out his plan of invading Pakistan.

 

If only he'd ever really had a plan of invading Pakistan. Of course he never did, and never even suggested that the invasion of Pakistan should be an option.

 

Question - What percentage of democratically elected leaders of Pakistan have managed to finish their term without an attempted or successful coup or without being dismissed by the President prematurely?

BTW, it is a violation of the contitution for Bhutto to serve a third term. Why do the people who support her as the legal democratic choice ignore this? And if anybody wants to know why US support has shifted to Bhutto recently, it is because she has promised to give the USA essentially free reign to fight the WoT in Pakistan in exchange. From the US perspective this is not a bad thing, but it is hardly a abstract endorsement of democracy.

 

this is an easy question. musharraf added this amendment to the constitution to ensure another hurdle for bhutto and sharif in case they would run again.

absolutely. bhutto is a tool. and thats the major reason why saudi is backing sharif's attempt to go back and run.

 

Not exactly a beacon of democracy himeslf. See the 14th Ammendment.

 

In the latest news Nawaz Sharif has returned to Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21962085/

Ex-Prime Minister Sharif returns to Pakistan
Political heavyweight joins nation's power struggle after years of exile


updated 2 hours, 4 minutes ago
LAHORE, Pakistan - Exiled former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif returned home to a hero’s welcome Sunday and called on President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to end emergency rule before elections, a fresh challenge to the U.S.-backed leader.

“These (emergency) conditions are not conducive to free and fair elections,” Sharif told reporters at the airport after arriving from Saudi Arabia. “I think the constitution of Pakistan should be restored, and there should be rule of law.”

Sharif, the head of one of the country’s main opposition parties, said he had not negotiated his return with Musharraf, who overthrew him in a 1999 coup, and expelled him when he first tried come back to Pakistan this year.

“My return is not the result of any deal,” Sharif told reporters. “My life and death are for Pakistan.”

Thousands of frenzied supporters pushed past police barricades into the airport in this eastern city, carrying Sharif and his brother on their shoulders and cheering wildly as Sharif stood among them on a raised platform. An armored car carrying Sharif left the airport on a procession toward a shrine in the center of the city, surrounded by screaming supporters.

Musharraf has grown increasingly unpopular since he declared a state of emergency on Nov. 3, locking up thousands of opponents, purging the Supreme Court and muzzling the media.

If Sharif and other opposition parties refuse to take part in parliamentary elections slated for January, it would undermine Musharraf’s claim to be taking the country back toward democracy. Equally tricky for Musharraf would be an alliance between Sharif and another recently returned prime minister, Benazir Bhutto.

The deadline to file nomination papers for the Jan. 8 vote is Monday, but Sharif did not say whether he would do so.

Forces try to quell scene
The scene at Lahore airport was eerily reminiscent of the early jubilation that greeted Bhutto when she came back to her home city of Karachi in October, but the number of supporters was far lower. Bhutto’s return was greeted by a massive suicide bomb which killed about 150 people in a procession through the streets.

In a reminder that Pakistan remains under emergency rule, security forces had rounded up some Sharif activists and attempted to seal off the airport.

But the supporters who found their way through tight security swarmed into the terminal building waving the green flag of his party and shouting slogans including “Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif!” and “Go, Musharraf, go!”

Police lifted batons to drive them back from the arrival area, but had no space to swing them amid the dancing, jubilant crowds.

Television footage showed Sharif, dressed in his trademark white shirt and a dark waistcoat, on an airport stairwell next to his brother, also a politician, and surrounded by security officials, waving to the cameras.

Tight security that had surrounded Sharif after his plane touched down appeared to melt away amid the chaos.

Ballot thrown into confusion
Both Bhutto and Sharif have been seeking to return to power after the parliamentary elections. But the ballot, which the West hopes will produce a moderate government able to stand up to Islamic extremism, has been thrown into confusion by Musharraf’s seizure of emergency powers.

Major opposition parties — including Bhutto’s Pakistan People’s Party — have been lining up to take part in the elections with preliminary steps such as filing nomination papers.

Bhutto said Friday she had not yet decided whether to participate. On Saturday, a loose coalition of opposition groups including Sharif’s party announced it would boycott the election unless the government lifts the state of emergency, restores sacked Supreme Court justices and releases all political prisoners within four days.

Sharif indicated his party, the Pakistan Muslim League-N, would demand a restoration of constitutional rule before it took part in the vote, but that any decision on whether to boycott would be taken in conjunction with other groups.

Angling for a return
Sharif has been angling for a return ever since Musharraf overthrew him and gave the jailed politician a choice: accept 10 years of exile or face life in prison on charges including hijacking and terrorism.

The charges stemmed from Sharif’s desperate attempts to turn away a packed civilian plane carrying Musharraf — then the army chief — back from a trip abroad.

As the Pakistan International Airways plane ran low on fuel, Musharraf used the cockpit radio to contact his senior commanders on the ground, who quickly took over the country. By the time the plane touched down in the southern city of Karachi, Musharraf was Pakistan’s new leader and Sharif was under arrest.

In September Sharif boarded a flight from London to Islamabad, but police in the Pakistani capital swiftly sent him back to Saudi Arabia.

This time, the Saudi leadership reportedly pressured Pakistan to accept him. Saudi King Abdullah provided the plane that carried Sharif home.

Official: Activists jailed before return
Ahsan Iqbal, a spokesman for Sharif’s party, said some 1,800 activists were detained in a crackdown ahead of the former premier’s return.

However, federal Information Minister Nisar Memon said he was exaggerating.

“There are no arrests as such,” Memon said. “About 100 people have been confined so that they do not create any issues. We don’t want the same mess as there was in Karachi.”

Authorities issued no warnings that Islamic militants bitterly opposed to Musharraf and Bhutto for their pro-U.S. police might target the religiously conservative Sharif.

However, his arrival came one day after suicide bombers killed up to 35 people in nearly simultaneous blasts at the heart of Pakistan’s security establishment in Rawalpindi, a garrison city adjacent to the capital, Islamabad.

It was not clear who was behind the explosions — which targeted a bus carrying intelligence agency workers and a checkpoint near army headquarters — but authorities said suspicion rested on Islamist militants who are fighting an increasingly bloody insurgency against government troops in the northwest of the country.

The army said Sunday that 30 pro-Taliban fighters and one Pakistani soldier died in an operation to capture militant positions in the Swat valley, a former tourist destination just 100 miles from Islamabad.

Musharraf cited rising religious extremism as a reason for declaration a state of emergency. However, many of those targeted under the crackdown have been political opponents, lawyers and members of the media.

More than 5,500 people have been detained since the crackdown began, but authorities insist virtually all have been freed since last weekend, when visiting U.S. Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte urged Musharraf to restore the constitution.