I would love for Vince Young to end up in AZ. I agree with everything Desert Scar in your post. Reggie Bush really did solidify himself as a rare talent, but both VY and Bush have done that they're entire college careers. I still don't understand why people think Lienart is a hands down favorite over young. to me, arm strength is the one attribute that is holding Joey Harrington back, it held tim couch back, and it will hold alex smith back. everyone talks intelligence, but the only big time qb I've seen get by on below avg arm strength is Montana. arm strength is one of the things that is going to keep david carr a texan. and I agree, for value I still think vince young is a better choice. think about it like this an exceptional running back can get you about twenty touchdowns a year, over an avg which gets you about ten. an exceptional qb gets you about 30 tds a year. their is just more value in getting a franchise qb at the top. but I know, some of you guys still think carr is a franchise qb. so we'll see
This also puts in perspective the incredible display Vernon Davis put on in Indianapolis. 1. He ran a 4.38 (under much less favorable conditions than Bush's similar time). 2. 42 inch vertical (compared to 40 or so for Bush) 3. 33 reps of the bar 4. 10-8 broad jump (Bush 10-9) 3. Oh yeah, he's also 6-3 254... Now that is superhuman. Of course it dooesn't mean jack till he gets on the field.
Not to derail the Bush workout thread but I have to respond to this one. McNabb, McNair and Culpepper were passed up by teams for many of the reasons VY may be passed on. I think VY is farther along than McNabb as a passing QB (certainly more so than Vick, who went #1), and McNabb was drafted after the "Pro Style" Tim Couch. Very similar thing could happen with Leinart and VY--I certainly wouldn't pass on the guy with the better arm, much better athleticism (understatemant of the year) and equal track record/leadership/poise, just because the other guy got a higher Wonderlic and was used to playing under center in a pro style system (and blessed with phenomenal talent around him including the dominant Oline in college football and mismatches all over the field at WR, RB, TE etc). Interesting, I think every offensive player on SC will be drafted (Jarrett--who would be the #1 WR this draft, Smith, and their 2 returning OL are highly regarded), probably over half in the 1st or 2nd rounds. Matt Leinart was like a NASCAR driver whose car was 10 MPH faster than everyone elses. He will never have remotely the advantages he had at SC. How he will do with average talent, let alone mediocre to bad talent if he gets drafted by a bad team, is pretty hard to call. So no, I would not take ML over VY. And yes I think there will be lots of teams passing on VY that will regret it.
I agree that VDavis put on probably the most impressive showing. 4.38 for a dude his size? Thats nasty. Linebackers cant keep up with him and safeties are too small to cover him. VD will make some noise next year.
Davis also had very impressive field stats, I can't see why he isn't thought of as a top 3 or top 5 pick, except that it is just rare for TEs to be considered there at all. Had Bush and VY been underwhelming in their workouts I was strongly in favor in moving down to 5-6-7 for Vernon Davis (plus like an extra 2nd, 4th, next year's 1st, next year's 3rd, etc). People talk about Bush opening up the field, but a TE like that (Gonzales in his prime, even faster version of the Chargers guy) impacts the game in so many ways. I still think if the Texas could get a kings ransom and select Davis that is a very reasonable thing to do, but I think Bush makes good sense too, and is definetly more of a wow factor with fans. Bush is coming to the Texans.
Huh? So just because you haven't heard of anybody trading up to #2 for VY, he isn't special? I guess that makes Leinart a scrub since word is that he isn't even lined up at #3 right now. You have to look at the circumstances. What team in the Top10 besides the Titans/Cardinals are desperate for a QB? None. And why would you trade up to #2 for VY if, as you said yourself, he could fall to #10? The Titans aren't going to trade up if the player they want could fall to them, that doesn't make that player any less "special."
I haven't heard about any trade offers for the #1 pick either, so does that mean Bush isn't special either? Or for that matter, that no one in the draft is? It always amuses me (especially with the Rockets and Astros) when people think that they would be privy to all the trade discussions and free agent/contract discussions that go on behind the scenes, as though these teams simply make trade offers in the media.
The bench press is a fine exercise, the test is stupid as it test muscular endurance versus actual strength or power.
The bench press test is a great indicator of overall all upper body strength -- it's not the end all, but it's a good quick evaluation.
Again, I have to ask, if Reggie is a super freak, what the heck is Mario Williams and Vernon Davis? I think they ran at the combine on turf, not a track.
The bench press is a great evaluator of upper body strength but the 225 for reps test does not show strength it shows muscular endurance - trust me I have been a strength and conditioning coach for years. If you wanted to see strength you would look at a 1 rep max. I think that scouts and coaches are paranoid about injuries and this is why they use this stupid test. Here is an example, Fred Hatfield was the first powerlifter to squat more than a 1000lbs in competition he had a squat contest with Tom Platz (who was famous for having monsterous legs) Hatfield stopped at 925 and Platz got around 800. Then they put on 625 and Hatfield did 12 reps, Platz did an impressive 25 reps. This should illustrate why the 225 test is silly. lf you judged Hatfield and Platz based on their 625 performance you would think Platz killed Hatfield yet Hatfield squats 200 lbs more than Platz for a 1 rep max - thus HE is signifcantly stronger. Football is not a muscular endurance sport, it is an explosive sport.
I don't know guys, I would think muscular endurance only adds to the shine...The ability to maintain speed, and drive is important for the lower body. Upperbody wise, stiff-arming defenders or lowering the shoulder can add yardage...I think it's great. Bush has solidified the case to be the guy...
Thanks for the lecture -- I guess. Please reread my post, the 225 is a great [quick] standardized evaluation of overall upper body strength -- they could have the guys max out, but that is too dependent on variables like overall body weight/ arm length etc. Plus they probably consider maxing out to be too dangerous. I've done the 225 test many times and you have to be very strong to lift 225 lbs 24 times -- Reggie's lift would certainly translate to a one-lift max of 325-350 lbs (if not more) IMO. A better indicator of upper body muscular endurance would be a push up test. Lifting your own body weight is always the truest indicator of stamina and endurance.
My only point was that Reggie's performance is what impresses me the most. He's a little stronger than I thought, but as far as vertical leap and speed, there are certainly others that are close.
I've heard he can do over 400lbs. Why all this hate over the bench press? I don't think they make you do it to see how strong you are, but how strong your are against other draftees. Thats what all these work outs are for, to have a standardized way to compare players. We could all agree that there are better ways to show ones strength than the bench and there are better ways to show ones speed than a 40 yd dash. We look at these numbers way too close, what really counts is what they do on the field and we know Reggie and Vince can get it done.
