bush visit to europe met with protests..question to bush supporters..

the "he's stupid so nothing he can do can possibly be right or good" is tired already.

He's not bright, but he can do things that are right or good. I just don't think he's done many/any yet.

the Kyoto Protocol would be a huge mistake that would put the US at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace.

Of course it would. So does the Minimum Wage. So does health care requirements of US Employers. So do many of the trade agreements we have with Japan and China. The catch is that all of these (and Kyoto presumably) improve the quality of life in America in various other ways -- it's a simple tradeoff.

By the way -- I know none of the details of Kyoto and am making no judgement as to whether we should sign it or not. I can't comment on that because I don't know enough about it. Bush may or may not be right on this one, in my opinion -- I have no idea.



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http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.

 

rimbaud,

Lay off that comment. MadMax was just talking to me after he knew that I wouldn't take that line as seriously as you.

I read it as him just saying, "Sometimes I feel this way." It is no different than me saying, "Damn, those republicans make me think they want imperialistic rule of the world." It is just talk after MadMax and I got comfortable with each other.

Don't broadside him for loosening up while achieving agreement.

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 14, 2001).]

 

Heypartner: But I don't think Rimbaud or I even understand how socialism is remotely relevant to the discussion? If it was just a "classic conservative truism" that was relevant to the issue, that's ok... but how do global environmental agreements have anything at all to do with socialism?

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Lacking inspiration at the moment...

[This message has been edited by haven (edited June 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by haven (edited June 14, 2001).]

 

heypartner,

You misunderstand. I was genuinely confused. This was not an attack or anything, just curious. I honestly did not even plan on responding to his response. I just wanted insight.

Isn't it possible to just ask a question without some kind of devious motive?

Of course, I knew he wouldn't respond easily because he doesn't like me.

------------------
I have just realized that the stakes are myself
I have no other
ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life
my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over
the roulette table, I recoup what I can
nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu
nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag
this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with
this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move
as we slither over this go board, stepping always
(we hope) between the lines

 

Rimmy: who would, you libocrat

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Lacking inspiration at the moment...

 

rimbaud -- didn't mean to dodge a question. I do remember reading it..but i guess i forgot to respond to it because i was in the midst of a conversation with others. sorry. and i certainly don't dislike you...i just don't always agree with you. i don't always agree with anyone, but i like pretty much everybody! see...even conservatives can be nice guys!

as for socialism. there is the thought out there that ultimately environmentalism leads us closer to socialism. here's a rough idea of how it works. you get enough NIMBY's (not in my backyard) to say, "you can't build new power plants!" (see calif)...so ultimately supply problems cause prices to soar. they soar so high that eventually low income families can no longer power their homes. so, of course, the govt steps in to solve this problem. and in any number of ways, they ultimately provide some robin hood power plan whereby we're all responsible to pay for the power of the less fortunate.

the other concern is that environmentalism may ultimately lead to state control of industry. right now, the faa is concerned with customer satisfaction of airline patrons. So they're talking about deeper regulation to insure that the industry is more sensitive to its customers. How much more concerned would a govt agency be with the threat of global warming? How much more would they be willing to assume greater regulation, on par with what they do in Europe? I'm not saying this is something happening anytime soon...but it seems to be the logical progression. That concerns me for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the uncertainty of the science and what we might give up in the face of that.

shanna -- i recognize we make economic sacrifices for the betterment of our quality of life. but here we're talking about extraordinary costs that run way above the programs you're talking about. we're talking about fundamental changes in major sectors of our economy...many economic forecasters (including some of clinton's old advisors) are saying this treaty would kill our economy and about 2 million jobs as the cost of doing business in this country would rise dramatically, while remaining unchanged in non-complying nations. That's a little more than the costs of OSHA regs.

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Max,

You hating me was mostly a joke.

In regards to your response, interesting. Is there any literature from which you are getting this, or is an amalgomation of your own? just curious if you could point me to someting to read.

Next, in your NIMBY scenario, are you speaking of nuclear plants, or any kind? I, personally, can see that with nuclear, but not with any of the "clean" technology (solar, hydro, etc).

Also, NIMBY has existed for some time, not just in regards to plants, but in regards to dumping. That is why the 3rd world has been the industrialized world's dumping ground.

Do you see this socialism connection with all environmental movements?

Let us disregard the global warming aspect and look at pollution in general (things such as smog, polluting groundwater, etc)? Do you see any cause for concern in these areas?

If so (and this is the main point of this) do you see environmental solutions that would not lead to that which you fear most?

Just curious in all of these respects. Don't be like heypartner and think I am looking for an argument. I won't even give my opinion.

------------------
I have just realized that the stakes are myself
I have no other
ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life
my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over
the roulette table, I recoup what I can
nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu
nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag
this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with
this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move
as we slither over this go board, stepping always
(we hope) between the lines

 

rimbaud: but we already *know* your opinion

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Lacking inspiration at the moment...

 

You know nothing of my opinion you Democrat.



Really, how could you be a Democrat? Haha

(once again, I would like to point out that I, unlike most on this board, can make the right tongue-sticking-out face!)

------------------
I have just realized that the stakes are myself
I have no other
ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life
my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over
the roulette table, I recoup what I can
nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu
nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag
this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with
this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move
as we slither over this go board, stepping always
(we hope) between the lines

 

Really, how could you be a Democrat? Haha

Errrp? Didn't get that one...

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Lacking inspiration at the moment...

 

Don't you vote Democrat and supported Clinton, etc? I may be mistaken...

------------------
I have just realized that the stakes are myself
I have no other
ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life
my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over
the roulette table, I recoup what I can
nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu
nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag
this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with
this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move
as we slither over this go board, stepping always
(we hope) between the lines

 

I voted for Nader. I supported Clinton to an extent, but thought he was too moderate . Didn't like it when he co-opted so many Republican issues. I wanted Bill Bradley to win the Democratic Primary. *really* disliked Gore.

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Lacking inspiration at the moment...

 

Sorry, thought you were more mainline Democrat, in which case I was making fun of you for buying into that crap.

I was also curious how that could be, though, with your scandanavian socialist dreams. Now it makes more sense, though.

Sometimes I have to be intellectually coddled...I am a little slow.

------------------
I have just realized that the stakes are myself
I have no other
ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life
my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over
the roulette table, I recoup what I can
nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu
nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag
this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with
this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move
as we slither over this go board, stepping always
(we hope) between the lines

 

Believe it or not...I actually voted for Clinton in 92...suffice it to say, I think I made a huge mistake. In 94, I voted a straight republican ticket...apparently I wasn't the only one!

I don't know where I first read or heard this idea...wish I could claim it as my own, but it's not. I think it all kinda stems from the notion that FDR bought a contituency for the democratic party forever by pushing through the New Deal. Paint the other party as mean and uncaring and then promise the moon. Politics is ultimately the struggle for power...votes equal power in our country.

I think what scares me the most is how much these guys are willing to sacrifice for something so uncertain. My original post on this thread contains some quotes that scare the hell out of me. Despite their acknowledgment that this phenomenon may or may not exist, they're willing to put the economy and the people who live within it, through hell. And the plans they have come up with seem to have only negligible effects, according to the EPA. We talk so much about quality of life issues...and many times we talk about them in terms of being juxtaposed to economic interests. I don't see it that way. If you cost a man his job due to radical government imposed jolts through major sectors of our economy, you've hurt his quality of life. We've seen how divorce rates, crime rates, suicide rates, etc run higher when the economy takes sharp downward turns. Ultimately, being able to provide for your family, is a big part of quality of life. Being able to pay your bills feels ok...not being able to pay them feels like you're drowning. Sharp rises in energy prices are felt directly in your energy bills and felt indirectly through the passed along costs you'll see in the rise of prices of consumer products. I can't separate losing one's job and not being able to pay drastically rising prices from quality of life...despite the fact i would agree with the assertion that money can't buy happiness.

Of course I'm ultimately concerned with additional govt regulation. But chasing a costly cure to a disease we're not sure exists scares me. That kind of "sky is falling" mentality leads us to rash decisions which leads us down paths we wish we would not have taken.



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