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Bush suddenly looking to negotiate on N. Korea crisis----

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by underoverup, Oct 20, 2003.

  1. treeman

    treeman Member

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    glynch:

    And you *still* can't go a single post without throwing in a blatant anti-US lie.

    We did not ever, once, at any time in history, give the Iraqis chemical weapons. The closest anyone ever came to that was the German companies who helped sold them equipment that could be used to produce them.

    Please provide your proof that we did so. I'd like to see it.

    (another blatant lie)

    We do not even know that for sure. Over a million chemical alerts went off during Gulf War I, and I have been told by troops in the chemical corps that the "Gulf War Syndrome" is almost certainly the result of chemical weapons. Recent studies of that illness indicate that it is the result of exposure to VX.

    What in my post could have made you think that? All I did was point out a blatant lie that you made in your post. Nothing more.

    Major:

    Correct, and the NKs rejected it already. Not much of a "negotiation", was it?

    N. Korea Rejects Written U.S. Peace Offer

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031022/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear_2

    You were right on that and I was wrong (that it was multilateral), but... Irrelevant. As far as the details being "still in the works" - not anymore. Your civilized and rational buddy Kim just nixed the idea.

    They did, however, show their desire for peace and willingness to negotiate by test-firing another missile towards Japan. How thoughtful of them.
     
  2. bamaslammer

    bamaslammer Member

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    It won't be a laughing matter for those stupid NK commie bastards when the bunker buster bombs are hunting them down in those huge bunkers they have all over the place in the mountains. I'm really sick of these guys thumbing their noses at us and using that "we're a little unstable" thing as an ace in the hole. This is a govt. that starves its own people, yet spends most of its GDP on defense. Why are they so threatened? We only have 30 thousand troops in NK, a sort of "tripwire" force. It's not like we're going to have any element of surprise if we were to invade.



    N. Korea Rejects Written U.S. Peace Offer
    Wed Oct 22, 2:27 AM ET

    By SANG-HUN CHOE, Associated Press Writer

    SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea (news - web sites) rebuffed President Bush (news - web sites)'s proposal to give it multi-nation security assurances if it agrees to scrap its nuclear weapons program, saying the offer was "not worth considering."

    North Korea, in a radio broadcast late Tuesday, reiterated that it would settle for nothing less than a formal nonaggression treaty that would legally bind the United States not to launch a pre-emptive strike against the isolated communist country.


    Earlier this week, Bush rejected North Korea's demand for a formal treaty. Instead, he put forward a plan in which the United States and four other nations would give North Korea written assurances it won't be attacked if it promises to dismantle its nuclear program.


    "It is a laughing matter and is not worth considering," the state North Korean Central Broadcasting Station said in a dispatch monitored by South Korea (news - web sites)'s Yonhap news agency.


    "We have demanded that the United States drop its hostile policy toward the (North) and sign a bilateral nonaggression treaty with us. We have not demanded some kind of security guarantee."


    Bush made his proposal at a summit of 21 Asia-Pacific leaders in Bangkok, Thailand, which was dominated by security issues including North Korea's nuclear threat. It would commit the United States, China, Japan, Russia and South Korea to a no-invasion pledge.


    North Korea fired at least one short-range missile off its east coast on Monday, rattling the gathering of Pacific Rim leaders and giving urgency to the yearlong nuclear crisis.


    Bush's overture was a subtle yet significant shift in Washington's approach. The United States had earlier insisted that North Korea created the nuclear crisis and must move first to end it. Pyongyang paid no heed and began taking steps that could give the country several more nuclear bombs in addition to the one or two it already is believed to possess.


    Earlier this month, North Korea announced it completed reprocessing its stash of 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods and began using plutonium extracted from them to build more atomic bombs. Last week, it indicated that it might test a bomb.


    In August, talks between the United States, China, Russia, Japan and the two Koreas in Beijing ended without agreement, even on when to hold another round of talks.


    Pyongyang's main state-run newspaper Rodong Sinmun said Tuesday the August talks "clearly proved the U.S. true intention to totally disarm and destroy" North Korea.
     
  3. Lil

    Lil Member

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    the u.s. has never attacked a nuclear power.

    wait, in all of world history, no country has EVER attacked a nuclear power.

    if the U.S. goes after N.Korea, it would be a definite eye-opener.
     
  4. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Wrong. See 1973 Arab-Israeli War.
     
  5. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    37,000 is the more accurate number and you meant South Korea right? The US has no troops in North Korea.

    Bottom line is this war never ended. The North Korean governemts ultimate goal is to reunite the peninsula by force if necessary. They are threatened because they are paranoid. Kim Jung Il was brought up being taught that he was the savior of all the Korean people from the Devil that is the US. This is the only message that North Korean are fed. They fervently believe this.

    You are right about it not being a laughing matter. It will be tragic. The North Koreans are very capable of invading the South and killing MILLIONS of South Koreans. A war between the US / South Korea vs North Korea would make Vietnam look like Grenada. If there is going to be a World War III any time in the near future, it will start there.
     
  6. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    Chemicals and Iraq
    The suit alleges companies worldwide supplied chemicals to Iraq:
    Germany - 14 companies
    Netherlands - 3 companies
    Switzerland - 3 companies
    France - 2 companies
    Austria - 2 companies
    United States - 2 companies

    More than 5,000 veterans are plaintiffs in a lawsuit that accuses companies of helping Iraqi President Saddam Hussein build his chemical warfare arsenal. The plaintiffs are among the tens of thousands who came down with "Gulf War Illness," a debilitating series of ailments that can include chronic fatigue, skin rashes, muscle joint pain, memory loss, and brain damage.

    The veterans' lawsuit has moved slowly for eight years. Neither the U.S. government nor the United Nations weapons inspection agency, formerly the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) and now the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, would share supplier information requested by Pitts.

    Neither American company listed -- Alcolac International, based in Baltimore, Maryland; and Al-Haddad Trading, based in Nashville, Tennessee -- are still in business.

    "I am assisting United States veterans, heroes," Ritter said. "People who put on our uniform, defended our country in time of war, who have been abandoned by their government."


    Gulf War veterans suing companies for chemical exports
    From Phil Hirschkorn and Richard Roth
    CNN New York Bureau
    Friday, January 17, 2003

    NEW YORK (CNN) -- Twelve years after the Persian Gulf War began, some American veterans of that conflict are finding new ammunition in their fight to find out who supplied Iraq chemicals that might have made them sick.

    More than 5,000 veterans are plaintiffs in a lawsuit that accuses companies of helping Iraqi President Saddam Hussein build his chemical warfare arsenal. The plaintiffs are among the tens of thousands who came down with "Gulf War Illness," a debilitating series of ailments that can include chronic fatigue, skin rashes, muscle joint pain, memory loss, and brain damage.

    Now, plaintiffs' attorneys have acquired, for the first time, what they believe is strong evidence of which companies supplied Iraq the chemicals that might have been used to produce mustard gas, sarin nerve gas and VX.

    The supplier list, shown to CNN, is included in Iraq's 1998 weapons declaration to the United Nations, parts of which were resubmitted to weapons inspectors last month. Sources tell CNN the list is an authentic document, but attorneys for the companies question its accuracy and say the lawsuit is without merit.

    The Iraqi list names 56 suppliers of chemicals and equipment to process them. A majority are based in Europe.

    "If they are hit in the pocketbook, if they know the dictator they provide this stuff to is eventually gonna turn them over to the public and they are gonna be held accountable for what they've done, they're less likely to sell these things to Saddam or somebody like [him] in the future," plaintiffs' attorney Gary Pitts said.

    The lawsuit, originally filed by Pitts in a civil court in Brazoria County, Texas, in 1994, alleges that companies knew "products and/or manufacturing facilities supplied ... were to be used to produce chemical and biological weapons."

    The suit seeks at least $1 billion in damages for medical expenses, lost wages, and pain and suffering.

    Seven companies in the Iraqi weapons declaration have been named defendants. Pitts said the plaintiffs will sue more of the listed companies next.

    Germany is home to the most major suppliers listed in Iraq's 1998 U.N. declaration. The Netherlands and Switzerland each are home to three companies on the list. France, Austria and the United States each are home to two. The declaration says Singapore was the largest exporter of chemical weapons precursors. Other countries home to alleged chemical exporters to Iraq include India, Egypt, Spain and Luxembourg, with one each.

    The veterans' lawsuit has moved slowly for eight years. Neither the U.S. government nor the United Nations weapons inspection agency, formerly the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) and now the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, would share supplier information requested by Pitts.

    "UNSCOM had a practice of not revealing names of companies of suppliers of equipment to Iraq because they often had the possibility of getting information from these companies, and the best way to get these companies to talk to them was not to publish their names to start with," Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, told CNN.

    Former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter, contacted by Pitts, acquired the list for the veterans during a meeting last year with Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz.

    "I brought out a series of compact discs which contained the totality of the Iraqi declaration," Ritter told CNN. The "full, final and complete" weapons declaration has never been made public. Ritter gave the CDs to Pitts.

    "I am assisting United States veterans, heroes," Ritter said. "People who put on our uniform, defended our country in time of war, who have been abandoned by their government."

    About 209,000 Gulf War veterans have filed claims with the Veterans Administration, and 161,000 of them are receiving disability payments.

    Neither American company listed -- Alcolac International, based in Baltimore, Maryland; and Al-Haddad Trading, based in Nashville, Tennessee -- are still in business.

    No one from Al-Haddad could be reached.

    Alcolac paid a fine in 1989 under U.S. law for one charge of exporting thiodiglycol, a chemical that could be used to make mustard gas, but that shipment was destined for another country.

    "I am unaware of any direct sale from Alcolac to Iraq," says attorney Ron Welsh, who represents Rhodia, which owns the defunct Alcolac's assets.

    Welsh said the veteran's lawsuit "has no meat."

    One of the largest alleged suppliers to Iraq's chemical program, according to Iraq's list, was the German company Karl Kolb. A spokesman for the company said it has done business with Iraq for 35 years, but he denied any connection to its weapons programs.

    The German firm Preussag, since acquired by the travel conglomerate TUI, supplied chemical precursors for sarin nerve gas, according to Iraq's declaration. The firm told CNN that claim is untrue.

    Several German manufacturers listed -- Schott Glas, Klockner Ina, Ludwig Hammer, Heberger Bau -- denied connections to Iraq's weapons plants and said the lawsuit's accusations are false.

    "Schott Glas is a manufacturer of glass and glass components, not of weapons," attorney Palmer Hutcheson said.

    "The plaintiffs don't have a case. They have failed to show evidence that Klockner was involved in any way in helping Iraq produce chemical or biological weapons," attorney Brian Hurst said.

    The Dutch company Melchemie denied that it supplied "strategic raw materials" to Iraq. It has acknowledged improperly shipping chemicals to an Iraqi agricultural producer once, in 1984. Melchemie paid a fine and says it bought back the containers. The firm said its Iraqi exports are now limited to tomato and cucumber seeds.

    A Dutch-based subsidiary of Phillips Petroleum exported chemicals to Iraq but nothing illegal, according to Sam Stubbs, an attorney for Phillips. Stubbs said, "Any substance Phillips would have sold to Iraq would have been a useful and beneficial product, if used properly."

    The Indian company Exomet Plastics, now part of EPC Industrie, said the only chemicals it shipped to Iraq were for pesticides. The firm told CNN that when it was advised of the chemicals' possible misuse, it stopped further shipments.

    "There were no restrictions for exporting these chemicals at the time the exports were made," said EPC attorney S.R. Mate.

    Despite their names being listed by Iraq, the French firm De Dietrich and the Portuguese-owned Tafisa denied ever doing business with Iraq.

    Half of the firms listed by Iraq and now targeted by the lawsuit as "major suppliers" are either defunct or were unreachable.

    "We have thousands of American veterans who continue to suffer," Ritter said. I don't give a damn about these companies. If they're innocent, they won't pay a price. If they have done something they need to be ashamed of, then let your shame be public."
     
  7. Lil

    Lil Member

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    my bad. i should have said instead "in all of world history, no country has ever successfully attacked a nuclear power
     
  8. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Wrong. Afghanistan/Taliban/Al Qaeda 2001.
     
  9. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Treeman,
    When trying to figure out why so many Gulf War I veterans are sick, don't forget the dust from the depleted uranium, which we insisted in exposing the Iraqis and our troops to, again in Gulf War II. With the lengthy occupation we can expect the exposure levels to only be higher.
     
  10. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Well, glynch, since ther GWS apparently results from exposure to VX, and we didn't run into any VX this time around, I wouldn't worry so much about it.

    And since there has never been any link found between GWS and depleted uranium, I wouldn't worry about that either.

    Did you know that we train with that stuff? And that it doesn't seem to do anything to us then? No, you probably never thought about that. ou're just looking for any old excuse at all to pull out and hand Saddam a victory. That has, after all, been your desire all along - to see an American defeat and a victory handed to our enemies. Since 9/11 you have been hysterically screaminf for just that.
     
  11. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    They were/are a nuclear power? Honestly, I never thought they were, but I'd appreciate the info. Thanks.
     
  12. treeman

    treeman Member

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    No, we are. They attacked a nuclear power. Did they get nuked? I don't remember any nukes going off...
     
  13. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Gotcha. However, by successfully, I think he meant on the whole, not just one battle...if you can call that ****ing cowardly day a battle.
     
  14. treeman

    treeman Member

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    I know. I'm just being difficult anyway. His point was that if we attacked NK, they would very likely use nukes back. I agree, I'm just being an ass.
     

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