It seems clear that this argument is fueled by religion, so I'm out. I'm not in the mood for religious debates. I'll end my argument by saying that I would gladly destroy an embryo to save a life, and that I hope a democratic president in 2005 will have half a brain, and allow this research to go full steam ahead.
slippery slope man, slippery slope. we start with embreyos, then move on to slightly more developed embreyos, then anything within the first trimester, then second, then up to full term, then we move onto those who aren't useful in society (the very young, the very old, the handicapped, eventually anyone who isn't productive, [or doesn't agree with the popular views]). That's why we have to be very careful about things like this, because humanity CAN'T be trusted to do the right thing and to know when to stop.
I'm somewhat concerned with your callous regard for potential life, ZRB. I've argued with others here about abortion, but few have come off with the sort of zeal for the destruction of embryos you seem to have. Please tell me you're kidding on the whole valuing an animal's life versus the potential life of a human thing. Awareness??? How much awareness does a snail have? Or a fish? It's called the food chain, my friend. It absolutely disgusts me to hear people champion abortion rights while at the same time going to war for the lives of f###ing seals!!! It's that kinda logic that seriously diminishes the ability of animal rights folks to make serious in-roads into the political mainstream of this nation. Valuing the lives of animals above humans is just outright freaky and unnatural. So keep up the good work!
Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" I just have something to add about what Dubya didn't tell us. According to him and his "experts" there are about 60 fully developed stem cell lines that he will continue funding. Good for him! Now let's talk about those 60 stem cell lines. Doctors from Harvard University were quoted as saying that they were "surprised" at the number of stem cell lines available for research. In fact, according to the leading American researchers on stem cell study there are only <b><I>12</b></I> lines that are funded by the US government. Where are the rest? Privately owned by different companies around the world. Anyone care to guess if these lines and research will be shared among these private companies? In fact American scientist estimate that there are less than 30 of these lines available for study in the US. This is what Dubya is not telling us. And contrary to what he says, these lines are NOT infinite. In fact scientist estimate that a healthy stem cell line would yield no more than 2 to 3 years of possible study. What happens after these lines die off? You guessed it! That’s the end of funding. But of course Dubya isn’t telling us that the government is only concerned about those 12 lines that the government funds.
Plants are alive anything not 'animal' [or already born] should be kill indescriminately Question: What if the research says baby in the second trimester help? Third? Or that they need Stems from embryoes with similar genetic material like transplants. . a good donor? The problem is folx look into those issues. I've heard of people having a second child to be a donor for their 1st child. i think that is sick. I understand but I don't like it. But of course. . .people getting pregnant to do this. . .well that is the slippery slope folx want to avoid Rocket River
Well, I think it's pretty obvious how anyone with more than two brains cells to rub together would feel about this issue. You ****ing idiots, there is only ONE WAY to think about this issue. THERE IS NO ROOM for intelligent debate about it-- you can have only one position, and if you have anything less than 100% fanatical support of that position, **** YOU and your grandmother and your entire family for ever drawing air on this planet. The ****ing Nazis thought the way you did, and surely you don't want to be compared to them? DO YOU? No, of course not. So obviously, now, you agree with me, since unless you say you do, I will compare you to them, you ****ing Gestapo worm. If you haven't come around to my position, you are evil, twisted, child molestor quality scum of the earth, and I would gladly kill you with my bare hands if only given the permission. You are worse than the KKK, worse than NAMBLA, worse than Bill Clinton, worse than Rush ****ing Limbaugh. You should have been aborted before your mother could puke from morning sickness even once. I wish nothing but pain and suffering to people who differ from me on this issue, bunch of brain dead masturbating zombies. I don't consider them people-- they disagree with me, and that can't be allowed, so I will simultaneously ridicule and condemn their ideas. I mean, come on-- THEIR IDEAS ARE DIFFERENT AND GODDAMNIT, something that DIFFERS FROM ME IS WRONG!!!!!!!!! Now, since this thread has inched towards an area I don't care for personally, I will leave it, having made a valuable contribution to the discourse.
I am COMPLETELY serious Madmax. I don't care about potential life, I care about LIFE. Embryos mean nothing to me. I would destroy as many as needed to save a life. And you know what? I wouldn't give it a second thought. Fetuses and infants are different. Although I support abortion, I wouldn't clone fetuses simply to kill them. Embryos are just advanced cells.
My father died in June of complications due to Parkinson's Disease and who was adamant about not benefiting from embryonic stem cell research.
I don't recall seeing many folks say they actually support abortion. Most of the pro-choicers I have heard or read cop out and say that they do not support abortion but support the woman's right to choose (although they are one and the same since there is nothing else that the woman can choose to do).
Rocketman -- I think Kagy's post was actually directed towards me. I said that valuing animal life above human life was outright freaky and unnatural. I'll stand by that position, criticism notwithstanding...I find it unnatural. I suppose I should be more "tolerant" and accepting of everything I don't agree with. But there are certain things that I believe strongly enough in to call a spade a spade on...at least through my frame of reference. Z -- wow!!! you don't believe in killing infants??? i think you're on your way to a whole load of humanitarian awards!! I'm sorry, but the day our society values the life of a chicken over the life of a developing human is the day I cash out my chips, move to Montana and bunker down for the Apocalypse. Again...the combination of cells thing only plays so far...at our essence, we are all just a combination of cells.
<B>Most of the pro-choicers I have heard or read cop out and say that they do not support abortion but support the woman's right to choose (although they are one and the same since there is nothing else that the woman can choose to do). </B> Huh? Did I miss something? Is having a child now illegal? Are all pregnant women now required to have abortions? I was under the impression that women currently have a <I>choice</I> between having a child or having an abortion. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Embryos are not human life. They may have potential to become human life, but they are not humans at that stage. Do I like abortion? No. Do I fully support children NOT being brought up by parents who aren't ready, and a woman's right to choose? Yes. Madmax- you strike me as the type who would keep a person alive, even if they became a mindless vegetable. That is essentially what embryos are. Vegetables.
ZRB: if the "mindless vegetables" are nourished and protected over time they will become giggling children and eventually young lovers and finally geezers They definitely have a future if IT'S NOT TAKEN AWAY.
I see that this has followed the path of predictability...the big bad abortion argument. Wow, how clever and original. Again, this is a different issue. Here is a question for those arguing against abortion as to the sanctity of life, etc... What is the possibility, or potential, of an embryo becoming human if it is in the garbage? This is the real issue. For the past 20 or so years (since fertility clinics began practicing), embryos have been discarded, thrown away. this year alone, it is said that some 300,000 embryos will be thrown away. So, what are the odds that they will become human? Is a current human life worth more than garbage? Max couldn't believe the stupidity of putting a higher value on animal life over an embryo...what about a full human life over garbage? Now, if you think that throwing away an embryo is murder...wher have you been the last 20 years? Why have you not protested fertility clinics? Notice I did not mention abortion in my argument?
rimbaud -- i think you misunderstand me....i agree with you. if the embryos are simply going to be discarded or thrown away...if a decision on their life or death has already been made...then i agree, go ahead and use it for stem cell research. Z - i don't think the vegetable thing is a very good analogy to this situation. closing out one's life as a vegetable carries with it very little dignity and a whole lot of suffering for the person and those who love him/her. preserving an embryo because of its FUTURE is in no way like that...the same concerns aren't implicated.
