March 19, 2010 Houston vs. Boston 87 to 94 loss Code: [b]Starters MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS[/b] Paul Pierce 28 9 14 0.643 2 3 0.667 6 8 0.750 5 1 2 0 3 4 26 Trevor Ariza 32 4 10 0.400 2 5 0.400 1 2 0.500 4 2 3 0 5 1 11 April 2, 2010 Houston vs. Boston 119 to 114 win Code: [b]Starters MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS[/b] Paul Pierce 40 9 14 0.643 3 5 0.600 6 10 0.600 4 2 1 0 0 0 27 Chase Budinger 45 9 14 0.643 6 8 0.750 0 0 5 2 0 0 1 3 24 For all those that seem to think we must start Trevor Ariza with Brooks and Martin because of his defense allow me to present exhibit A. Here is a comparison between Chase Budinger and Trevor Ariza playing against Paul Pierce. Trevors game was just a couple of weeks ago while Chase played him last night. Remarkably Pierce put up almost the exact same identical numbers against Chase that he put up against Trevor. Pierce took the exact same number of F/G attempts. He shot the exact same F/G percentage. Pierce had 1 more assist while playing against Ariza but one less steal while playing against Bud. Pierce had 27 points (not 29)while playing against Bud and 26 while playing against Ariza. The biggest difference is the number of minutes played by Pierce in the two games which was 29 vs. Ariza and 40 vs. Budinger. For those that watched the first match up on March 19th you know that Doc Rivers pulled his starter very early in the 4th because the game was almost decided by then. So how did Bud and Ariza do on the offensive end of the court? Bud was far better in points 24 to 11. Bud had the much better F/G% .643 to 400. Bud had one more Rebound than Trevor. Trevor had 3 steals to Chase's 0 but he also had 5 turn overs while Chase only had 1. This is only one game I know but it's just crazy how the numbers that Paul Pierce put up against Trevor are almost the exact numbers that he put up against Chase. Trevor was no more effective against Pierce on the defensive end of the court than Chase was. Obviously the big difference is on the offensive end where Chase is just a much more efficient scorer, he does not turn the ball over as much and he rebounds, passes the ball, moves with out the ball and scores in the paint as good or better than Ariza. Coincidentally the extra 13 points and 5 fewer turnovers from Chase may have been all we needed to win the game on March 19th. I think its time to stop fooling ourselves with the notion that Chase can't start on a team that also starts Brooks and Martin because his defense is just not as good as Trevor's. Starting Chase next season should be a very real consideration plus a full off-season working with Shane on his defense and he will very likely be a much more disciplined defender than Trevor.
Fantastic find Crash.....I have always said that it is easier to teach an offensive guy to be adequate on defense than it is to teach a defensive guy to be adequate on offense. Chase is arguably better than Trevor, now...and will only get better. I hope the Rockets look into moving Trevor this offseason, we have better options now...and on cheaper contracts. DD
I doubt they move Trevor this soon. Plus Battier is more appealing as an asset because he has an expiring contract this summer.
True, but Battier expires at the same time as Yao, and if Yao can't come back or is ineffective you can rebuild faster with Shane and Yao coming off the books. And honestly, if Yao can't go, Trevor would be horrible. DD
It's easy to build any kind of case when you have a sample size of 1. I don't think you can legitimately draw conclusions based on this.
I think the saying used to be "Draft offense and teach defense." I am a big believer that anyone can learn to play very good defense if they just commit themselves. Battier is proof of that to me, he is not all that athletic but he is so disciplined that he is one of the premier defenders in the league. Chase has as much athleticism as Trevor and he seems to be soaking up Battier's instructions on defense that I think Chase can be a very good defender in this league for a long time. On top of that I think he can be as good offensively as he wants to be.
Come on people, we should all be able to tell that Budinger is still not ready for a starters role. Kid can play, but right now, he is a bench player, if we wanted bench players to start, then Hayes would start next year over Yao.
I'm not so enthusiastic about that wiping out the roster rebuilding route. Today's rules really give teams an edge of keeping their own players. Morey should take advantage of other teams that trying to shed salaries in the same way he maximized McGrady's trade value. Battier and Jeffries are nice trade baits with their ECs (no offense to the players).
DD, how do you know the rox wouldve lost if trevor had played? C'mon, i like chase as a player and i think he's a better offensive player than trevor, but there is no way in hell martin and chase can start together.
Yep. I mentioned that it was only a 1 game comparison but you have to admit that the fact that Pierce put up almost the exact same numbers offensively against Trevor as he did against Chase is just a little more than coincidence. Just for grins lets look at Defensive Rating (or points allowed per 100 possessions) vs. Offensive Rating (or points scored per 100 possessions) for both Trevor and Chase. Trevor has a DRtg of 106 and an ORtg of 98 for an overall score -8 points per 100 possessions. Chase has a DRtg of 109 and an ORtg of 110 for an overall score of +1 points per 100 possessions. Advantage Chase. We can look at Offensive Win Share or OWS (estimate number of contributions to a teams wins by that players offense) vs. Defensive Win Shares or DWS (estimate number of contributions to a teams wins by that players offense) for both Trevor and Chase. Trevor has a DWS of 2.9 and an OWS of -0.3 for an overall Win Share or WS 2.5 Chase has a DWS of 1.1 and an OWS of 1.7 for an overall Win Share or WS of 2.8. Advantage Chase. Yes I know that there are other factors to consider like when Yao Ming comes back or a more mature Jordan Hill in the post. I fully expect Trevor's defense to improve exponentially next season. But with another year of Chase in the learning the defense and getting those same advantages we might very well see him improve on both sides of the ball as well. Although I believe Chase should be given the opportunity to start next season, I'm not suggesting everyone take that same opinion. What I am saying is that the suggestion of him starting is not so far fetched as some would think because of the perception that his defense is not good enough.
Even if you consider the possibility of a healthy Yao, a more mature Hill and a possible free agent pick up of a back up like Camby? I'm not saying all those things are going to happen but at least 2 out of three are likely. Plus with an offensive working with Battier don't you think that Chase could turn into a very good and disciplined defensive player going into next season? He certainly has the athleticism and BBIQ to do it. He also appears to have the drive to do it.
Let's not get too crazy here. I know we're not Laker fans on this board, but you can't just ignore Ariza's track record because he didn't handle the added role this year well. Ariza's overall score the past three years 2007 +5 2008 +13 2009 +10 And, for an added bonus, in the playoffs Ariza doesn't pull the Battier disappearing act. 2008 +16 2009 +11 There's a reason why Morey signed Ariza to a full MLE contract. Unless he's been permanently emotionally damaged by this season's troubles, Ariza is simply a better player than Budinger right now. Maybe CBud will improve, maybe not. But for now, there's no way he's Ariza's caliber as a two-way player.
Agree with you entirely,but if Yao is healthy(and that is a big if),Trevor will be respectable. He can get easier looks and defensively Yao can help out in the paint. I still would like to see Chase improve on defense and become a starter. I think he will fit in better with Yao than Trevor,but the presence of Brooks and Martin will prevent him from being very effective as a starter. Chase needs to be the 1st man of the bench. He needs minutes. Battier and Ariza need to alternate on defense with Chase. Chase can cut Martin's workload too. This is obviously valuable with Kevin's injury history. Getting better defensively is the key for C-Bud. Offensively,he is making good progress. I'm glad he is getting time,since Shane went down. If RA reverts back to cutting Chase's minutes down drastically,it will be a big mistake even though Ariza and Battier are better defenders,and Martin/Brooks aren't.
Nope not forgetting any of that. Obviously when there is a legit post presence on defense like Trevor had with the Lakers or what he is likely to have next season with Yao and possibly a better Hill and possibly Camby his defense will be exponentially better. But don't you think Chase's defense will get the same benefits once Yao comes back that Ariza is going to get? Plus Chase will have the added benefit of his rookie season under his belt and a full off-season program with the help of Battier teaching him defense. Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you that Chase should start, only that starting is not such a far fetched idea. I personally think he should get the chance to start but I do recognize the limited sample size we have on Chase. As far as who is the better 2 way player? I think that it is ridiculous for anyone to just say Although it's only 3 games but when Chase has started he has excelled on offense and played well on defense. What are the 3 teams he started against you ask? Detroit, Utah and Boston which are three of the best defensive teams in the league. At the very least Chase has done enough to merit the question as to who really is the better player.
I fundamentally don't agree with this. Defense is about more than athleticism. Just because you have a high IQ doesn't mean you can learn particle physics -- and even if you can, it may take you a long time to grasp all of the building blocks necessary to get there. Not everything can just be picked up. Take Chuck Hayes -- how much time do you think he has spent trying to become a better offensive player? At least a better FT shooter? Battier was a 3-time NCAA DPOTY in the NCAA -- he's been a very good defender for a very long time. Defense was not a new thing to him when he came to the NBA. I like Chase a lot, and I think he'll be able to do some serious damage as a spot up shooter with Yao in the game, but I'm not sure I'd like to go with the Martin-Budinger combo to start games. I also like him on the 2nd unit as I think he provides a bit of a security blanket and familiarity for Jordan Hill out there.
Some of you guys realize that the perimeter D will look much better once we get Yao back right? Even though no one thinks of Yao as much of a shot blocking presence, his sheer size in the middle does deter people from driving in on day. As good as Hayes is defensively, he should never be the starting center for any team in the NBA. At 6'6 people will just shoot over him once they realize they that while they can't back him anywhere, he isn't going to come close blocking them either. Don't get me wrong however, I personally believe that perimeter D is VERY important, because it filters down the amount of drives that get in and can cause early foul trouble, especially for more eager bigs. Just like having a solid interior presence dissuades opponents from driving in, a solid perimeter D keeps opponents out of the paint. However, with the presence of solid interior need takes off much of the pressure and necessity for a good perimeter defender so the actual difference in terms of overall team defense. Right now CBud's D looks a lot worse than it really is. Due to his average lateral quickness and a complete lack of shot altering presence, his opponents are more inclined to take their chances and try to blow past him. Considering he is a rookie and one of the biggest knock on him has been weak D, I am very pleasantly surprised as he is way ahead of the defensive learning curve. The guy is just a rookie and considering he has always been labeled as soft, the kid shows a lot of promise on the defensive end.
You're right. Once Hayes has been in the league 4 or 5 years, teams will finally figure this out. Then Chuck won't be able to make any more game altering plays.
I'm not saying that Chase is ever going to be Bruce Bowen on defense. What I am saying is that Chase has all the tools to be a very good defensive player and nothing that he has done this year has made me think that he will not be a very good defender. He has all of the athleticism he needs and he has a good BBIQ. While intelligence does not guarantee you can learn physics, the lack of it can guarantee you will not learn it. I have always believed that good defense is about hard work and effort most of all and unless you are just completely over matched physically you should be able to play good defense. Of course there are those players, like Paul Pierce, that will score 26 or 27 points against any defender in the league regardless if it's Trevor or Chase. Jermain Taylor has shown me that he may yet become a very good defender in this league yet by his own admission he never even attempted to play any defense in college because he was never asked to play defense. I don't think can always say because a player was not a good defender in college that he will not be a good defender in the NBA.
Beyond basic NBA athleticism and endurance/stamina to keep up with someone the entire game, defense is mostly attitude and polished by experience and intelligence. People like Battier and Hayes constantly get knocked on for their lack of athleticism by fans on this board, but people don't realize that as "crappy" as their athleticism is, it is still far better than anything we can ever hope to achieve. The key thing is that you need to WANT to defend and a great defender wants to defend at all time. Also, you can't get away against great scorers with a simply slow him down mentality. You have to go with him with a "I will do everything I can to lock you down and make your day miserable" type of mindset and if the guy still drops 20 on you, then you are hungry to do even better next time. Experience and intelligence will help improve your base D and help you figure out the opponent's tendencies and comfort zones.
