Bryant Gumball calls out Bagwell

That's what I was thinking, but if that were the case wouldn't it have shown up in the Mitchell Report?

 

You do realize nobody cares as long as the substance is legal ?

If steroids were never banned then nobody would give a crap about Bonds/Sosa/Mcgwire.

If an item wasn't on the banned substance list and it could help a player only a fool wouldn't take it....your not cheating the game.

 

I would not. If you demanded that I make a bet, I would surrender my cash to you and tell you to give it to Haiti. I couldn't be more clear in this thread, so I will simply repeat myself again:

We. Do. Not. Know.

That's the first "smoke" I've ever seen. You're correct that it's hearsay, but to be fair the first things we ever heard about all the other guys were hearsay, too.

I'll stand by my argument: we don't know. Unlike the other guys, Bags (who didn't get as large) has a very real, very painful, very plausible explanation for loss of muscle mass.

So, I will continue to argue that nobody knows. And if it ever came out as fact, my response would be: "Now we know." But it wouldn't surprise me either way. Honestly, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that *somebody* was at least halfway honest.

I thought it would go without saying, but when we talk PEDs we're talking about *banned*, *illegal* PEDs. I am well aware of the Andro and that it is in fact a steroid which is now banned (though not illegal IIRC). By the way, Billy Spiers used steroids, too. Cortisone, in his back, several times a season. Yes, cortisone is a steroid, just not of the same ilk as the illegal PEDs. And while I understand that in composition Andro is much closer to the illegal stuff than to cortisone, at the time it was *legal*.

We're talking about lawbreaking here, bro, not splitting hairs. Well, at least *I'm* talking about lawbreakers. And people who point to a ZIT and a rookie card and call Bags a juicer or a roider are certainly not talking about Andro.

Blake, that is a great post. I tried to rep it, but I had already repped a post of yours earlier and it wouldn't let me. I see where you're coming from, and I agree that it's sad.

I'm not jaded yet, but I *do* understand the very real possibility that any name you draw from a hat may have been an illegal PED user. And it's sad.

And it makes me wonder about guys. But it hasn't hurt my love for the game. I *still* love to watch MLB. I also love minor league ball, high school ball, JuCo ball, and the little leagues in my small town. And throwing the ball around with my kids.

Greatest game in the world, man. Baseball is the greatest game in the world.

 

Sure, it makes him more likely. That's a silly argument. "Someone who does [insert any drug-type thing] is more likely to do steroids than someone who is against using drugs."

I mean you could say Bagwell is more likely to use steroids than a person who didn't drink any alcohol. Because alcohol is a drug, and he was willing to harm his body by drinking.

Basically, I don't think it's relevant.

Everyone is different. I'd say there are tons of people out there who would willingly do anything that is 100% legitimate to help themselves in their job... but would, at the same time, never cross the legitimacy line.

Andro was legitimate. Steroids were not.

 

That's a reasonable speculation, but it is nothing more than that.

 

Completely agree with you here.

True. Wonder how long it took Sam to dig through Google and find that one article?

 

Still very incriminating nonetheless. Is it safe to say that Blair was under oath when he made his statements?

To be grouped in with Clemens & Pettitte is never good.

 

While I didn't read it that closely, my impression was that he told the Feds he didn't supply drugs, then he turned around and was name-dropping bragadociously (sp??) to friends.

Not very credible (unless I misunderstand), but it's still smoke. Not enough smoke to make me think "I know he did it", but smoke nonetheless.

After reading that, my thought is still:

We. Don't. Know.

It's the only reasonable conclusion, even if one understandably holds onto some suspicion. We still don't know.

 

One thing you failed to mention in posting up Bagwell's career HR numbers is the fact that he played alot of those years in the Astrodome. His numbers were far more impressive given that fact.

Not only that he had alot of injuries that slowed his production greatly.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I know for sure Bagwell Roided. But I remember right around the time the streriod drama broke the next year Bags came to camp much smaller and skinnier. To the point that even on this board it was a major talking point. Again, I wouldn't say for sure, but if I had to bet the farm on it....100 times out of 100 times I take that bet.


And you can't use McGwires stats. Solely because he came out his first year hitting 49 hrs. Had some of those years were he lost time due to injury which would of inflated his earlier numbers. Also as a rule of guide he hit generally more HRs than Bags. If you did as a percetange increase from, I dunno, first 5 years to last 5 years I would say the swing isnt that incredible.

 

That was also around the time his shoulder was failing and he had to quit hitting the weights.

 

You are correct. And yes, they are.

Not really--he missed three Septembers with broken hands. Not "a lot", and not slowing him "greatly".

You remember that, but you *don't* remember that it was also immediately following his first major shoulder surgery. Why IS that?? Why are we more inclined to remember things that help us accuse than to remember things that would help us acquit?

That's fair. Won't argue with you at all.

I assume you mean I can't use McGwire's stats to point out some great spike? I would agree, but that's not what I was doing. I was pointing out that McGwire simply had more power than Bagwell all-around, throughout their entire careers (though Bagwell was by far the superior ballplayer).

 

There is also the close relationship with Caminiti.

 

How do we know Caminiti even did roids? Yeah, he admitted it, but did he ever test positive? We. Simply. Do. Not. Know.

 

I had never heard Bagwell's name being mentioned about players who used PED's until Gumble threw it out there. I thought that was foolish. And Bagwell didn't get that big over the years. He just looked bigger than what he was because over the years he started wearing his uni a litte baggier.

Aside from that, I always notice a lot of men who are in their thirties get a little bigger, whether they work out or not because they tend to finish developing in their late 20's. My dad was really skinny when he was in his 20's and now he's 45 and his arms are bigger than mine, even though he's never worked out at all.

 

In my opinion though, I don't think steroids can make you that much better if even players who suck have gotten caught using them.

So what's the difference anyway if players now have performance enhancing qualities in their shoes as well?

 

So you equate speculation and a couple pictures with a personal admission? Bully for you.