Another thing that irked me was Bagwell's close ties with Caminiti. And I can say without any hesitation that Gonzo & Finley used steroids. I know it's not fair to be guilty by association but it sure doesn't help when judging players in the steroids era.
Not only that, but Bagwell had to play in the dome for the first part of his career and the move to "Enron" helped his offensive stats a bit too...so really, he had been very consistent throughout his career.
msn...I have a 6 week old child at home that isn't sleeping at all at night so my mind is jumbled. I obviously know the difference between objectivity and subjectivity...just having brain farts daily. But way to be classy and BOLD it and "quote" it to correct me. And to counter re McGwire/Bonds...tell me this...was ARod their size as well? And I don't feel it's immature to say people are looking at it through rose colored glasses, especially considering I was quoting a post that said I was spitting in the face of a local treasure... EDIT: and yes, it's only an opinion...my opinion. But as you said...WE.DON'T.KNOW...which is why we are discussing. And I have not ignored others...I don't think it's possible to go from being that small to being that large without PED's...unless you have time to work out 10 hours a day...which a MLB player cannot. And I don't think that a "hereditary shoulder condition" can be the be all end all as far as having that type of injury, though it is a good argument for the other side's case. Noted. And I realize I have no real proof and I hope that I'm wrong. I just don't think that I am
If I was betting, I'd suspect that Bagwell was a steroid user. That said, I've seen him workout half a dozen times over the past year and he's far from "tiny". That's an exaggeration. He's got a significantly above average build compared to other men of his height. He's not the jacked up guy he was 10 years ago but he's still in good shape. His weight loss can just as easily be attributed to the shoulder surgery or the drop-off in lifting after retirement. I'd point to the era along with his friendships with known steroid users as more prominent suspicions than his weight loss.
You're welcome. Nope. Neither are the countless little rats who do it in desperate attempts to make a roster. I commented on that earlier. Soooo, two wrongs make a right? *Both* were immature, Blake. My take is not subjective. You assumed anyone who didn't see it your way must not be thinking objectively. That's immature. I'm sorry if that offends you. But you did ignore it, until just now. Thank you for finally acknowledging it. Way to "quote" it, as if to blow it off, though. Perhaps you quote it because my quotes previously irritated you. That condition is not the "be all end all", but it has far more impact than you and others attribute to it. I disagree. I think that folks are first of all exaggerating the size he attained, and second of all underestimating the impact of the injury those last few years. My opinion; I realize you disagree and I respect your opinion on that. And here is where we entirely agree. Again, I have no beef with anyone who has that opinion -- as long as they don't accuse anyone who disagrees of "subjectivity" or "homerism" or "blindness" or whatever else, and as long as they don't present it like it's fact. It's not fact. It's your opinion. Ultimately... We. Don't. Know. Speak for your own opinion. You can call yourself sure, but ultimately you don't know jack.
Albert Pujols does steroids. Look at him when he was 18 and look at him now. THATS JUST UNREAL Obviously took steroids. That's basically what Mr Blake did So easy to make rumors/assumptions. The tough part is backing them up. If you can't back something up with proven facts then your take is ultimately irrelevant. And bagwell was always a great contact hitter. Steroids don't necessarily make you a better contact hitter mainly just more power. Look at Mcgwire he couldn't hit for average at all, but he could hit for home runs. Comparing him and Bagwell is the dumbest thing you could do.
well to be fair, steroids actually *can* help you hit for contact a little better in that you can catch up to the quicker fastballs. I spoke with someone who played college ball with a bunch of roiders (and gave me a "no-comment") and he talked about the incredible effect the roids have on your fast-twitch muscles, which play a huge part in the burst of bat speed to get to a ML fastball.
Yea I figured that they could probably help you in that fashion, but Bagwell was even a good contact hitter even before his "assumed" steroid years.
agreed. he was also a good power hitter before those years. most people assume he wasn't based on his minor league numbers, but he hit for nice power back in college.
actually, I was thinking about this subject on the way home, and I realized how sad it is that I have become so jaded about MLB players in the late 90's that I automatically think anyone who got big and hit a lot of home runs in that era cheated. Probably not fair to Bagwell, but I just think it was that rampant. Sucks that he could be innocent but there is no way to prove his innocence, so regardless of whether or not he did actually use PED's, I'm probably going to think he did. Freaking baseball...what a black eye on a great game
Sorry to get off track, but I will have minimum shock if it is ever found out that Pujols pops. As pointed out, he didnt have to start in the majors.
msn - if, somewhere in a vault, there existed a perfectly preserved random bagwell blood/urine sample from the 1990's during his musclebound, powerlifting apogee - and you had to bet $5000 straight up on it being positive or negative for some form of banned PED, which would you choose? And finally, for those saying there is NO non-circumstantial evidence with respect to Bagwell and steroids, there actually is. Granted, it is hearsay and unverified, but it's there: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/b...sources_kelly_blair_made_boasts_about_ju.html
msn, I see where you're coming from, and need to say that what I post here is strictly my opinion. However, if I were on the witness stand and were asked if I had any evidence that Bagwell used steroids, I think my answer would have to be "yes." Here's what I'd offer as evidence: 1. Androstenedione is a steroid. 2. Bagwell told the Chronicle that he had taken Androstenedione. Sure, Andro was not banned by MLB at the time, but that's beside the point. Bagwell admitted to taking a steroid. Do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bagwell took steroids? Only if he was telling the truth to the Chronicle. I'm sure some of you will argue that he only took Andro, and you might be right. But it seems that someone who is willing to turn to MLB-"legal" steroids to gain an edge over other players might also be willing to violate the league's easy-to-get-around (at the time) policies on other substances. Do. I. Know? Of course not. Is it likely, considering what Bagwell DID admit to? That's for each of us to decide.
A steroid precurser. I don't see how obeying the law and MLB rules means that someone would take an illegal substance against MLB rules.
Your "insight" from your gym days (which I am sure were just as intense as Bagwell's) as evidence that he was roiding are absolutely hilarious. I cannot tell you how much sheer comedy gold you have spun in this thread. I mean really, stopping a regimen of a few days a week at Bally's after work I'm sure is the same thing as stopping the workout regimen of a pro athelete. Damn...maybe you should have hosted "The Tonight Show." The problem is that you are in the same boat as the rest of us...anything you say is pure speculation, because you do not know. Neither do I. Neither does anybody else on this BBS (unless Bagwell posts here).
