I keep hearing how BRUCE “DEFENSIVE STOPPER” BWEN is this gr8 defender. And I don’t believe it. So…I decided to do a little research on his head to head matchups against some opponents. Just as I suspected, he sucks. BRUCE’S AVERAGES AGAINST SOME OF THE BEST VS. KOBE BRYANT Kobe Bryant: 28.5 points, 6.5 rebounds Bruce Bwen: 8 points, 3.5 rebounds Umm, that’s pretty terrible. –20.5 point differential. Wonderful defense there, Bruce. VS. VINCE CARTER Vince Carter: 28.5 points, 5 rebounds Bruce Bwen: 3 points, 3 rebounds Umm, that’s even worse than against Kobe. -25.5 point differential. Oh yea, he’s a baller. VS. RAY ALLEN Ray Allen: 18.3 points, 7.3 rebounds Bruce Bwen: 9.6 points, 4.3 rebounds Way to shut em down, Bruce!!! Oh wait, maybe Bruce was covering Glenn Robinson… VS. GLENN ROBINSON Glenn Robinson: 23.7 points, 4.7 rebounds. Bruce Bwen: 9.6 points, 4.3 rebounds Never mind. His numbers still suck. –14.1 point differential. VS. PAUL PIERCE Paul Pierce: 30.5 points, 5 rebounds Bruce Bwen: 7.3 points, 2.5 rebounds Slaughtered. –23.2 point differential VS. IVERSON Allen Iverson: 27.5 points, 4 rebounds Bruce Bwen: 5.75 points, 2.75 rebounds *so depressing… -21.75 point differential VS. MARBURY Stephon Marbury: 26.25 points, 3 rebounds, 5.5 assists Bruce Bwen: 7.25 points, 3 rebounds HERE'S THE BREAKDOWN ON BRUCE VS. THE BEST…. VS. KOBE BRYANT Dec. 19 vs. Lakers Kobe: 23 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists. Bwen: 8 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists. Jan. 21 vs. Lakers Kobe: 34 points, 8 rebounds, 5 steals. Bwen: 8 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists. VS. VINCE CARTER Jan. 24 vs. Raptors Vince: 21 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. (31 min.) Bwen: 4 points, 2 rebounds, 0 assists. (21 min.) Feb. 15 vs. Raptors Vince: 28 points, 7 rebounds, 0 assists. Bwen: 5 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists. FOULED OUT. Mar. 27 vs. Raptors Vince: 38 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists. Bwen: 3 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists Apr. 13 vs. Raptors Vince: 27 points, 5 rebounds, 8 assists. Bwen: 0 points, 2 rebounds, 0 assists. VS. RAY ALLEN & GLENN ROBINSON Nov. 28 vs. Bucks Allen: 21 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists Glenn: 22 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists Bwen: 20 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists. (GOOD GAME, BRUCE!) Mar. 29 vs. Bucks Allen: 13 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists Glenn: 27 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist Bwen: 8 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist Apr. 17 vs. Bucks Allen: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists Glenn: 22 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists Bwen: 1 point, 3 rebounds, 2 assists OK, let’s look at Bruce versus people in his own division last year. Defensive stopper??? I think not. VS. PAUL PIERCE Jan. 6 vs. Celtics Pierce: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist. Bwen: 11 points, 0 rebounds, 5 assists. Jan. 10 vs. Celtics Pierce: 28 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. Bwen: 8 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist. FOULED OUT. Apr. 3 vs. Celtics Pierce: 33 points, 9 rebounds, 1 assist. Bwen: 0 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. FOULED OUT. April 11 vs. Celtics Pierce: 41 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 blocks Bwen: 10 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists VS. STEPHEN JACKSON & STEPHON MARBURY Nov. 15 vs. Nets Jackson: 13 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists. Marbury: 31 points, 9 rebounds, 9 assists. Bwen: 9 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists. Dec. 23 vs. Nets Jackson: 3 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist. (23 min.) Marbury: 37 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist Bwen: 3 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists. FOULED OUT Jan 4 vs. Nets Jackson: 4 points, 1 rebounds, 0 assists. (16 min.) Marbury: 27 points, 1 rebound, 3 assists. Johnny Newman: 11 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists (22 min.) Bwen: 15 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist. Feb. 24 vs. Nets. Van Horn (back in his starting role): 9 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist. Marbury: 10 points, 0 rebound, 9 assists. Bwen: 2 points, 2 rebound, 1 assist. VS. ALLAN HOUSTON & LATRELL SPREWELL Nov. 29 vs. Knicks Houston: 15 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists. Sprewell: 22 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. Bwen: 4 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists. Feb. 4 vs. Knicks Houston: 17 points, 3 rebounds, 6 assists Sprewell: 14 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists. Bwen: 12 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assists. Feb. 20 vs. Knicks Houston: 12 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist. Sprewell: 17 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists. Bwen: 10 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists. March 11 vs. Knicks Houston: 13 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist. Sprewell: 16 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists. Bwen: 11 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists. Apr. 8 vs. Knicks Houston: 7 points, 2 rebounds, 0 assists. (25 min.) Sprewell: DNP Glen Rice: 7 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist. Bwen: 8 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 6 steals. (FINALLY !) VS. TRACY MCGRADY Nov. 1 vs. Magic McGrady: 16 points, 4 rebounds, 0 assists. Bwen: 5 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists. Jan. 27 vs. Magic McGrady: 19 points, 15 rebounds, 3 assists. Bwen: 5 points, 4 rebounds, 0 assists Apr. 15 vs. Magic McGrady: 24 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. (26 min.) Bwen: 3 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist. Apr. 18 vs. Magic McGrady: 10 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists. (12 min.) Monty Williams: 13 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists. Bwen: 8 points, 0 rebounds, 3 assists (27 min.) VS. AARON MCKIE & ALLEN IVERSON Nov. 4 vs. Philly McKie: 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists. (5 min.) Iverson: 23 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists Bwen: 0 points, 0 rebounds, 2 assists. (22 min.) Nov. 17 vs. Philly McKie: 11 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists. (22 min.) Iverson: 19 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists. Bwen: 8 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist. Feb. 28 vs. Philly McKie: 7 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists. Iverson: 27 points, 1 rebound, 3 assists. Bwen: 2 points, 7 rebounds, 0 assists. Apr. 10 vs. Philly McKie: 5 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists Iverson: 41 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist. Bwen: 13 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists. VS. MITCH RICHMOND, NESBY, RICHARD HAMILTON, ET AL, Dec. 2 vs. Wizards Richmond: 15 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists. (28 min.) Hamilton: 13 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. (29 min.) Bwen: 2 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. (35 min.) Dec. 29 vs. Wizards Richmond: DNP Nesby: 15 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist. Lopez: 8 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist. Hamilton: 17 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists. Bwen: 10 points, 1 rebound, 3 assists. Feb. 27 vs. Wizards Richmond: 20 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists. Bwen: 10 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist. Apr. 4 vs. Wizards Hamilton: 16 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists. Laron Profit: 10 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists. Bwen: 5 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists.
someone please demonstrate 1. when, where, and how bruce "the vice grip" bwen was a net gain on the court. 2. when, where, and how did he outplay his opponent? 3. when, where, and how did bruce "the glub" bwen outscore his opponent? 4. when, where, and how did bruce even average double figures? 5. why, if he was SO good, pat riley didn't care to keep him...instead picking an OFFENSIVE player in k-gill?
LOL!! after this research, Bruce has officially lost his "o" !! and i now know why there is no "d" in his name, either!
By the way if Bowen's sucks, then Eddie Jones sucks to. He started most of those games. It's all relative really. How many points did opposing SFs score against Mario Elie? It's probably higher then you think. Besides, Kendall Gill is a pretty good defensive player as well, when he decides to play.
Oh is this the verse rant page? I didn't actually bother to read through most of your list, but from what I see it is a point-by-point account of Bowen versus the elite shooting guards. Three points: (1) The NBA is a team game. Bowen's job was to limit the offensive game of the guy he was guarding. Not to outscore the opposition. (2) No shooting percentage? Mention of wins and losses? If you defend Stackhouse (for example) and he scores 30 points on 12 of 31 shooting, you've probably done a good job. A guy who keeps on jacking up shots is gonna score eventually. As long as you make him take bad shots you've done your job, especially if you've helped your team win in the process. (3) Didn't see much of Bowen play this year so I don't know if he was in fact effective in those games, or deserved the kudos or not. But then, I bet you didn't see all of his games either!
i caught the " ", but bruce started all but a couple of those games. and in ALL of those games he played SUBSTANTIAL (25-35) MINUTES. and if he didn't i made notation of how many minutes he did play. p.s. eddie can score. bruce couldn't score in a whorehouse.
DamnSamCassell : 1) you're right, it IS a team game. but the individual accolades he received don't match up with what he has done on the court, IMO. he didn't really limit the offensive game of the guy he was guarding. and no, i don't expect him to outscore his opponent. what i'm saying is that a guy that can "hold" you to 28 points, while scoring 8 is not nearly as effective as a guy who might give up 35 but will put up 20. bruce's alleged defense, IMO, is a large result of the team he plays with being defensive oriented. he often got stuck with the tough assignments (mostly because he CAN'T score), and if the team was able to hold that man to decent shooting, bwen got credit since he was matched up with the guy. problem is, he (or they) didn't always hold that guy down. in fact, his opposition almost routinely scored at or above their average. 2) honestly, i'm too lazy to go through and calculate all the shooting %s. then i'd have to compare the %s to their regular %s. i can tell you this. sometimes, those players shot under their %. but ultimately, i'm not sure that matters. look at allen iverson. sometimes, he can wreak so much havoc on a defense that you allow other player to get theirs. or you get fouls on the opposing post players. as for W/L, the funny part is that when the opposing player did get less than their usually ppg, miami ALMOST ALWAYS LOST! that just goes to show their is not always a direct correlation between "defense" and victories. 3) actually, i did see quite a few of his games. i'm an nba league pass junkie. and the guy can't shoot. can't penetrate. can't post. is overrated on defense. is a net liability on the court. is worse than mario elie was (not that mario was bad).
Shandon, first off...nice research and data. I kinda feel guilty that my Bowen/Kobe slip up yesterday may have instigated this! If your whole case is based on how many points Bowen scored- versus the points scored by the other teams all-star, that isn't a fair comparison. The Heat's main scorers are Brian Grant, Eddie Jones, and Tim Hardaway. Bowen is the 4th or 5th option. Bowen is called on to defend, not score, so naturally the other guys points will exceed his. "1. when, where, and how bruce "the vice grip" bwen was a net gain on the court." Bowen is there to defend, not score, so of course there will be a big differential. "2. when, where, and how did he outplay his opponent?" Bowen is there to defend, not score, so of course there will be a big differential. "3. when, where, and how did bruce "the glub" bwen outscore his opponent?" He is not expected to outscore his opponent, the Heat gameplan called for Grant, Jones, and Hardaway to score. "4. when, where, and how did bruce even average double figures?" It's hard to average double figures when you aren't even one of the top 3 scoring options, and you are in there to defend. "5. why, if he was SO good, pat riley didn't care to keep him...instead picking an OFFENSIVE player in k-gill? " Riley did want to keep him. The Heat offered a 2 year deal worth $5 million. But, Bowen wanted a guarantee that he could start which is why he refused that deal and eyed the Spurs, taking a $716,000 a year deal with SA.
Verse, it is no use arguing about bOwen. Of course he is a sucky starter. You would be hard pressed to count on 1 hand starting SFs who he will be better than if he ends up starting next year. Plus, there are plenty of back-up swing players that would clean his clock too. Just in case people think you were selective in your recaps, here are more sobering #s for the bOwen is the savior club. Career shooting: FG% .370 FT% .600 3% .349 Well at least his numbers will improve when the season in on the line, right????? So how did he do in his only playoff series when his team needed him to slow a good group of guards/SFs, but a group with no superstars. bOwen: 4PPG in 16 MPG, FG% =.349, FT%=.625, 3%= .233. --Eouu, even worse offensive effeciency than his career numbers. Well surely there is more to this story, after all bOwen is known for his D right?? How did individual opponents do against him--he had to be guarding one of the following Hornets, surely he could take one out of the equation, you be the judge: Did he shut down the always solid but never special Mash? 24PPG, 44% FG, I'd say NO WAY! Did he shut down the journeyman Wesley? 17PPG, 52% FG, I'd say HECK NO! Did he shut down the talented but young, inexperienced Davis? 20PPG, 56% FG, I'd say NOT IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS! How exactly is he going to be a Kobe stopper, let alone slow Peja, Finley, Dirk, DA or Wells???
Additionally, I doubt that Bowen would have defended Van Horn or Glenn Robinson. I'd imagine that duty would go to Anthony "Mase" Mason, maybe Brian Grant. Are we sure it was Bowen and not Tim Hardaway that guarded Iverson ? Are we 100% sure that it wasn't Hardaway, Majerle, or Eddie Jones guarding Vince? etc, etc etc? Either way, in all but about 2 examples the other teams star was held to, or below, their season average. Whether or not that was solely Bowens effort or not is something I don't have the time to figure out. Suffice to say....he is an all-nba defense kind of guy, and will make a nice 4th or 5th scoring option on the Spurs.
I'LL SAY IT AGAIN... WHY...IF BWEN IS YOUR BEST PERIMETER PLAYER...WOULD YOU NOT PUT HIM ON THE OTHER TEAMS BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER? didn't the rockets attempt to put shandn "defensive stppr" andersn on the other team's high scoring perimeter player? sure. the only time we didn't was when it became painfully obvious shandn had NO CHANCE to defend the player, and couldn't score on offense either. that was ok, though, because we could put cuttino on their offensive player (see: vince carter) and he could at least match or outscore vince. what will the spurs do when they figure out that -- OOPS! -- bruce bwen isn't as good as we thought he was? what will the spurs do when they figure out that -- OOPS! -- bruce's man is getting tim and dave in foul trouble? what will the spurs do wehn they figure out that -- OOPS! -- bruce's man keeps doubling off of him since he can't shoot? put steve smith on him? um, no. put AD on him? um, no. put danny fairy on him? um, no. put TP on him? um, no. where is the spurs' perimeter defender that can actually contribute some points? you may not see the need for it now, but come playoff time - and against the western juggernauts - you'll need it!
Generally you would put your best defender on the opposing teams best offensive player, but only if the matchup is right. You wouldn't put Bowen (6-7 200lb ) against a guy like Van Horn (6-11 255 lb) or a banging power forward. That's what the Grants, Mases, and Majerles are for. Bowen was the 4th or 5th scoring option at Miami. It shouldn't be any surprize that he didn't have numbers comparable to the high scoring all-stars.
...but didn't Aaron Mckey hold the title of best perimeter defender for Philly? You know what the difference is? Aaron can GO for 20-25 pts., but Bwen can't. You can say that he is the 4th or 5th option, but you know that sometimes you need scoring from the other starters (like Rick Fox, Ervin Johnson, Charlie Ward). Just because you are not expected to score doesn't mean you CAN'T score, but compared to other 3rd- 5th options...he simply can not fill it up.
It is amazing how Bowen can get to the NBA without ANY offensive skills. Give him credit: He can score. He may not be the most offensively prolific scorer out there, and nobody is claiming that he is or will be. Our offense with be Duncan, Robinson, Steve Smith, and Antonio Daniels, with strong production off the bench. If Bowen averages 9 points a game, he will exceed expectations. He is here for defense, not offense. All we need Bowen to do is defend, funnell the defense into the twin towers, and stand behind the 3 pt arc and hit 35% of his 3 pt shots.
OK... but the problem was offense... didn't you watch the Playoffs? not even Dave and Tim could stop Kobe when he went to the hole, and the games were won and lost by the Spurs because there was NO SCORING from the perimeter or the other players period. So you bring in a 2nd Team Defensive Wizard to stop players and for SOME scoring when Tim and Dave or WHO EVER is being hampered offensively. He is supposed to be the Spurs Rick Fox meaning a person that can play the HOT man, and off set he with his scoring...if Rick Fox scores 16 pts. you are going to loss, and Bwen should be the same way. The only reason why they got pass the Twolves and Mavs is experience and simply knowing how to win games, but that didn't work against the Lakers...and it won't work this year either.
Mr.Spur/Jay Howard, what's your take on the situation? or are you out looking for a new job today??? ************************ KIR2GO, lawrence mten did it. shandn andersn did it. stacey augmn did it, too. players like bruce bwen are pretty easy to come by, IMO. what the spurs need - if they intend to contend - is a "threat" from every position. esp. if they expect to derail the lakers. the lakers will have a field day doubling off of bwen. they already showed last year that they can beat the spurs with single coverage. now they have the luxury (if so needed) to double off with their sf (fox, et al) onto the post players. they'll just sit back and dare bruce bwen to beat them. looking at what he did last year, he didn't "beat" too many teams. for you to say that he's the 4th or 5th option is true. however, when you're playing a prolific scorer - which is what his assignment has been and will be - you have to make them play defense, too. if not, they'll be conserving all that energy for offense. they'll be conserving all that energy for busting through the lane, and getting to your post players. aaron mckie, as Mo Diggity Dawg astutely pointed out, is the perfect example of this. he can play good "d", but is capable of busting you for 20. is he a primary weapon? not really. but, when called upon, can do it. bwen has yet to show this ability - save for one 20 point game against milwaukee last year (and the heat lost that game).
"not even Dave and Tim could stop Kobe when he went to the hole, and the games were won and lost by the Spurs because there was NO SCORING from the perimeter or the other players period." I won't contest that. First and foremost we ran into a superior and confident team. They were the better team I'll make no excuses. One reason we had no outside scoring is due to the injury to DA. He caused havoc on defenses, and opened up our perimeter shooters. All year the outside shooters had incredibly open looks. Versus LA, they always had a hand in their face. Nobody can stop Kobe, especially when you have to keep a body on Shaq, and especially when you don't have a defender to harrass and slow down Kobe. Bowen may be able to do it. Bowen is here to fill Sean Elliotts role. We can wait till the regular season to see whether he can do it defensively, and how his offense goes. If teams want to lay off him, we'll see if he can make them pay for it with his 3's. Could we get a better player? Sure. But not on the cheap. Who can say that Bowen may not be a temp? Someone to fill a role, gain some trade value over the next two years, and develop trade value for 2003 to re-load?
1. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Until the resident Spur hater provides a breakdown of Bowen's performance in the minutes he actually guarded whoever, those numbers are worthless. If anything, he just proved how overrated Eddie Jones' D is. What was Bowen's performance versus Eastern Conference centers? 2. Sure, Bruce Bowen is not an offensive powerhouse. He doesn't have to be. Danny Ferry was the Spurs' starting small forward for the second half of last season and the Spurs ended up with the best record in the league. Bowen is a better fit at the 3 for the Spurs than DFerry, though I am sure someone will argue otherwise. The primary role for the 3 man in the Spurs' offense is to knock down outside shots. Bowen can handle that. As the 5th offensive option, I am not worried. I did not realize that you had to have an all-star at every spot on the floor. 3. There is going to be much more flexibility for defenses and individual defenders next season thanks to the rules changes. The Spurs have been a defensive-oriented club for the last 4 season. AD/Smith/Bowen is a better defensive group than Porter/DA/DFerry. With defenders free to create more contact and Duncan and DRob behind them, the Spurs should have the top defensive perimeter in the league. Overall the Spurs should be one of the tallest teams in the league...something of importance with teams allowed to run zone-like defenses. 4. AJ is not what he used to be. He's lost his step and chemistry issues led to his departure. Elliott's career is over. These aren't the 'losses' that some would like them to be. 5. Smith is a better fit for SA than DA. DA struggled in the halfcourt whenever he had to break a defender off the dribble and he struggled in the first round of the playoffs versus the likes of Peeler and Lopez. Smith is a much more efficient scorer and a proven playoff performer. In 2 years perhaps the Spurs could use a DA, but not today. 6. Overall the Spurs have definitely improved personnel-wise over last season, and especially over what they had in the WCF. 7. The real question marks for SA are Tony Parker and Stephen Jackson. Should they contribute enough to be regular members of the rotation, then I really like the Spurs' chances next season. 8. I'm glad Howard is gone. I suppose I should start referring to you as Bill 'Hair' Worrell or Calvin 'Eddie Munster' Murphy.
Mr.Spur, i'm going to go in reverse order... why are you glad you got fired? ok, i'm just pulling your chain. seriously, why are you glad jay got fired? that surprises me coming from a spurs fan. p.s. you don't like bill worrell's hair? isn't he related to peter holt and jimmy johnson? and calvin is just ridiculous. a total embarassment to ... well nevermind. i don't want to get started on calvin.
