List of "dominant" 20 and 10 guys on bad teams (50 losses) since 1980s: 1987-88 Otis Thorpe 1990-91 Roy Tarpley 1991-92 Pervis Ellison 1994-95 Derrick Coleman 1999-00 Elton Brand 1999-00 Shareef Abdur-Rahim 2000-01 Elton Brand 2006-07 Kevin Garnett 2006-07 Zach Randolph 2007-08 Al Jefferson 2008-09 Al Jefferson 2008-09 Zach Randolph reference: http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2009/11/word-of-day-20-10-50-guy.html I thought this list would relevant seeing as how the Nets are headed for 50+ losses. I'd be reluctant to crown Lopez in the league of Tim Duncan/Dwight Howard. Of the list above, KG obviously had good years on a good team. I'd wait to see if Lopez can be a 20-10 guy on a good team and as it's best player before I would even consider him dominant.
Um, where to start...first of all, I totally agree with you that big men win championships (even with the new rules), and to be quite honest I think a Hakeem, a Shaq or a Kareem is worth 1.5 prime MJs. They're that game changing, and as far as I can see, only MJ won without a dominant big man by his side...and he had Pippen, Rodman and PJ to help him too. However, using Shaq and TD to compare Lopez and Rose is crap. That's like putting a rickshaw next to a BMW and saying a car is better than a horse! Lopez doesn't deserve to be mentioned with these greats, right now he's a B level player, and I don't think he's gonna be better than a B+. If he was really that good why didn't he dominate in college the way Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan did? Sure he put up "decent" stats, but saying he will be someone like those two and dominate in the NBA is wishful thinking. Guys like Beasley and Okafor did much more in college than him, and look at where those guys are right now. The truth is you need athletecism to succeed, and Lopez doesn't have it. Lopez can model his game after TD, but he won't be as effective as TD because he isn't as athletic as TD. I'm talking about flashy dunks Amare style, I'm talking about insane lateral quickness, quick reflexes or inhuman strength. Duncan wasn't flashy at all, but he's tops in every single area. Shaq wasn't as laterally quick as TD so his PNR defense sucked, but his strength and explosiveness for a 7 footer was and is unparalleled. DH lacks skills, but my belief is he has the same god-like body as Dream and LBJ. Lopez isn't as fortunate, and while he'll put up decent stats, look for him to get pwned whenever he's up against a truly elite center, which is why I brought up his games against Orlando. There's a limit for athletically average guys like Lopez, and DH proves it every single game. If he was really so good, how come the Nets went 2-19 when he played in all games? The Cavs in LBJ's rookie season were just as bad and Orlando in Tmac's time seemed just a tad better, yet they never even came close to that record. Speaking of DH, do you realize that's he's only 3 years older than Lopez? Even if he's already at his prime (which at 24 I highly doubt) DH will always be better than him, except maybe when Howard retires, then Lopez will probably have 3 years to brag that he's better than DH before he retires as well. Rose oth has a chance to become one of the best pgs ever. He's not just athletically gifted, he's big for his position, he's got great bball IQ, he has court vision and he's got a point guard mentality. The only thing holding him back is terrible coaching (which Durant also suffered from) and his shot. As TP and Harris have shown the shot can be developed. Once he does, nothing's preventing Rose from being the best pg in the league, not even Chris Paul.
I think that Lopez is awfully good. I wouldn't put him in the category of dominant though. I think that the big men in general are enjoying a resurgence. The nba in recent years has been more enamored with going small, mirroring the college game. This probably has a lot to do with the new rules about how a team can play defense. Suddenly, a brook lopez looks around and he is the biggest strongest player on the court. Lopez wouldn't even be top 10 in centers back in the eighties. This whole rule changes also has benefited the likes of Brandon Jennings, Aaron Brooks and all of the aggressive point guards in the game.
it's great to see another center with some type of offensive game rather than just dunks or putbacks. we've only seen yao for the most part lately. he should be an all-star this year (but his team sucks so don't know). however, he should challenge for the top center crown in a few years, if not net year.
I don't know why you love Rose so much but from what I've seen, hes an average player. Hes not the type of PG to elevate his teammates game, hes still working on a solid jumper, hes out of control alot and his handles need a bit of work too. I just dont see him becoming an elite PG in the same class as Nash/Paul/Williams/Kidd (in his prime)/Billups. But anyway my point is that skilled big men like lopez are indeed alot rarer than athletic Pgs like rose.
Easily replaceable? It's not easy when there are only a couple of players in the league who could fill the roll. I guess it was Shaq beating the Pacers single handedly in a Finals game after he had fouled out, right? You may be right about McGrady, but certainly not Iverson. It wouldn't do much good having Shaq on the team if he's just watching Iverson shoot 25 long jumpers every game. I agree with you here. You're going a little overboard here. Wade is a beast, and TP was an all-star by this point in time (and Finals MVP). Pierce has had a lot more success without KG than KG has had without Pierce. And how far did the team make it? To the second round of the playoffs. Somewhere KG has only been once without Pierce. The Lakers were garbage for the first couple of years after Shaq left, and that's not Kobe's fault. The year they got Gasol, they were playing better even before they got him and probably would have won a series or two. Gasol put them over the top, but let's not pretend he was racking up the MVP awards before coming to LA. He was a good big man on a garbage team. Who cares if Kobe hasn't won without a quality big man? No big man except Hakeem (once) and Duncan (twice) have won it all without all-star caliber guard play. So the lesson is, unless you have the next Hakeem or TD on your team, you probably need an all-star caliber guard AND big man to win a championship.
So I could replace Shaq with Wallace, Garnett, Gasol, Duncan, Yao, or Howard for those teams and any combination and those teams would have won titles? Alls the last 10 years proves is you can't do it alone.
The NBA doesn't have dominant centers anymore. Shaq & Olajuwon were dominant centers. You don't see that anymore.
It really shows how weak the roster for big man now, when Brook Lopez is considered a good and even a dominant center. Where for me he is at most a decent center. The 90's NBA with Shaq, Mutombo, Ewing, Hakeem and Robinson. Heck there is still Alonzo and Sabonis. Those are what I call dominant centers. Now all we have are DH, injured Yao, grandpa Shaq/ Big Z, Perkins, Bynum, Bogut and Okur.
First off, it wasn't just KG that was hurt. The Celtics had no front court depth because all of their big men were hurt. Second, even if that is the case, it doesn't change the fact that Paul Pierce has a history of playoff success (including a conference finals appearance) without KG. And third, it is still unreasonable to give KG the credit for winning the championship when he wasn't the best player on the team, didn't win Finals MVP, and disappeared during a lot of key moments in the playoffs that year.
almost through page 2, and no mention of the obvious: Lopez is nothing without CDR on the court with him.
good numbers on a bad team are always a bit sketchy...but lopez is big, pretty athletic and sound in many aspects of the game. He's certainly a quality big man...dominant??? Will he be TD dominant, doubt it. WIll he be ewing "dominant"...maybe.
You know I respect you but this is flat-out ridiculous. 10 Derrick Rose's for every Brook Lopez? 10?! GTFO. And not that I think Rose is some otherworldly player, but at the same time neither is Lopez! He's putting up Chris Kaman numbers right now on a horrifically bad team. Rose has already demonstrated the innate ability to elevate his game and teammates when it counts the most -- something only a handful of PG's in today's game are capable of doing. That's the point. For that reason, plus given that Rose is in a messy situation and FAR from a finished product, I feel it's really quite foolish to be writing him off so easily as just a dime-a-dozen player. Lopez? Again, we'll see if he's just another borderline 20-10 player that fills up the stat sheets while being unable to carry a team. Who knows, maybe he is the superstar and premier player that you see? Only time will tell. Also, preaching to me that big men win championships is nothing new to me. I've been saying the same thing for years and spent this entire past summer imploring the Rockets to acquire another low post player to safeguard ourselves from yet another Yao injury destroying our season. Nine times out of ten I am going to agree with this line of logic. Just not in this instance. But to sit here and act like Lopez is already a premier player and some future HOF'er type is quite premature and ridiculous. Can he reach that point someday? That remains to be seen. But acting like his name should be compared with some of the game's all-time greats just for the sake of your argument is really quite the dubious point to make. P.S. Speaking of asinine pairings. I like Tony Parker as a player but lumping him together with the game's great playmaking PG's is something even a Spurs fan wouldn't dare do.
