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Breath-test ruling jeopardizes thousands of state DWI cases

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by KingCheetah, May 3, 2009.

  1. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Never had to do a breath test and I never plan on it so I'm not aware of what actually is input besides breathe. I can't imagine that the breath test would work on everyone, but should be able to work for people 100-300 pounds if enough samples are taken to get a statistically defendable curve. Granted, I'm not a statistician, but would expect this to be a very high number of samples.

    If they don't factor weight/height, the results of a breath test probably would not be accurate to say his BAL is x. They could still say the BAL is at least x if they use the most conservative body type. Someone else said that the breath test usually reports low so my guess would be that they assume the most conservative body type.

    I think the easiest thing would be to just take a blood sample if someone busts the breath test.
     
  2. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    weight/height may not be relevant. Unless we know what the calculations are, a person can't challenge the results as failing to take a specific attribute into account.

    Supposedly, the machines use an average ratio of breath-to-blood. So, if the average the machine uses is 2400:1 and humans have a range of between 1100:1 and 3000:1, the average may or may not be very accurate for any particular person.

    So, I go to court, having blown a 0.09 and been arrested. I come to court with a test that shows that my breath-to-blood ratio is normally 1500:1. Should my case be dismissed?

    Unless I can show how the machine's software calculates the breath/blood ratio and how my breath/blood ratio would result in an error, I'm not going to be able to argue my case. And if the software and how it comes up with its results is a trade secret that I cannot challenge in court, then no amount of actual scientific evidence can save me.
     
  3. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    so do they punch in the weight of a suspect or any other information before having them blow into the machine?
     
  4. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    No, they do not.
     
  5. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Don't drive drunk, but this particular testing method needs to be reevaluated -- hiding the source code is ridiculous.
    _____

    Software Problems with a Breath Alcohol Detector

    This is an excellent lesson in the security problems inherent in trusting proprietary software:

    After two years of attempting to get the computer based source code for the Alcotest 7110 MKIII-C, defense counsel in State v. Chun were successful in obtaining the code, and had it analyzed by Base One Technologies, Inc.

    Draeger, the manufacturer maintained that the system was perfect, and that revealing the source code would be damaging to its business. They were right about the second part, of course, because it turned out that the code was terrible.

    2. Readings are Not Averaged Correctly: When the software takes a series of readings, it first averages the first two readings. Then, it averages the third reading with the average just computed. Then the fourth reading is averaged with the new average, and so on. There is no comment or note detailing a reason for this calculation, which would cause the first reading to have more weight than successive readings. Nonetheless, the comments say that the values should be averaged, and they are not.

    3. Results Limited to Small, Discrete Values: The A/D converters measuring the IR readings and the fuel cell readings can produce values between 0 and 4095. However, the software divides the final average(s) by 256, meaning the final result can only have 16 values to represent the five-volt range (or less), or, represent the range of alcohol readings possible. This is a loss of precision in the data; of a possible twelve bits of information, only four bits are used. Further, because of an attribute in the IR calculations, the result value is further divided in half. This means that only 8 values are possible for the IR detection, and this is compared against the 16 values of the fuel cell.

    4. Catastrophic Error Detection Is Disabled: An interrupt that detects that the microprocessor is trying to execute an illegal instruction is disabled, meaning that the Alcotest software could appear to run correctly while executing wild branches or invalid code for a period of time. Other interrupts ignored are the Computer Operating Property (a watchdog timer), and the Software Interrupt.

    Basically, the system was designed to return some sort of result regardless.

    This is important. As we become more and more dependent on software for evidentiary and other legal applications, we need to be able to carefully examine that software for accuracy, reliability, etc. Every government contract for breath alcohol detectors needs to include the requirement for public source code. "You can't look at our code because we don't want you to" simply isn't good enough.

    link
     
  6. Fatty FatBastard

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    This is awesome. I love it when these ass-hats get busted for corruption.
     
  7. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Catastrophic Error Detection Is Disabled: An interrupt that detects that the microprocessor is trying to execute an illegal instruction is disabled, meaning that the Alcotest software could appear to run correctly while executing wild branches or invalid code for a period of time.
    ______

    This is completely unacceptable.
     
  8. Rashmon

    Rashmon Member

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    If it leads to more accurate roadside testing, good.

    If erratic driving warrants a traffic stop, drunk or not, I want the driver pulled over. I want dangerous drivers off the road. Period.

    Despite the overwhelming perception on this board that the police are "out to get us" the vast majority of drivers do not get pulled over without some reason.
     

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