[breaking news] terrorist plot in london thwarted

DaDakota · Aug 16, 2006

Deckard said:

Certainly sounds strange. Guess we'll see how this develops.

Keep D&D Civil.
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Oh, I am sure they were up to something, as they were under surveliance etc.....but maybe it was not as concrete as the government is making it out to be...still would make people think twice about it, especially English citizens.

DD

rimrocker · Aug 16, 2006

DaDakota said:

Oh, I am sure they were up to something, as they were under surveliance etc.....

DD
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That's a damn dangerous assumption.

rimrocker · Aug 17, 2006

Plane-Plot Suspects to Be Kept in Jail

By MATT MOORE
The Associated Press
Wednesday, August 16, 2006; 6:41 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/16/AR2006081601186_pf.html

LONDON -- A district judge ruled Wednesday that British investigators have until next week to investigate the suspects arrested in an alleged plot to blow up as many as 10 trans-Atlantic jetliners, saying they could be kept in custody without charge.

It was the first major test of a new terrorism law that lets suspects be held for as long as 28 days without charge so investigators can solidify their cases.

The hearing, which addressed the cases of 23 suspects arrested in Britain's initial sweep last week, was held behind closed doors and attended only by the suspects' lawyers, investigators and government officials.

Scotland Yard said that 21 of the suspects could be detained for questioning through Aug. 23, while another two could be detained until Aug. 21. No reason was given for the difference in the length of time.

The final suspect, who was arrested Tuesday, was not involved in the hearing, Scotland Yard said, adding that he remained police custody.

Experts say the primary reason police could use nearly a month to complete a probe is because of the complexity of investigations into the alleged plot to smuggle liquid explosives hidden in hand luggage aboard flights.

"You've got laptops, you have to bring in translators to translate all the documents in there, and sometimes it's inopportune to release all your suspects _ particularly terrorism suspects _ while all that is being downloaded and translated," said Cliff Knuckey, a retired police detective who has worked on terrorism investigations.

"Terrorism investigations are different, simply because you're dealing with people who will do their best not to compromise their plans and who will do anything not to be compromised."

When police officials appeared in February before a House of Commons committee looking at Britain's terror legislation, they told lawmakers much the same thing. And Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, who commands the anti-terrorist police branch, said officers had found terrorist training videos spliced in the middle of normal Hollywood films, meaning hours spent scrutinizing videotapes.

Previously, police were able to detain people suspected of terrorism offenses for 14 days only. But the new legislation, which became law earlier this year, also created new offenses, including preparing a terrorist act, giving or receiving terrorist training, and selling or spreading terrorist publications.

Prime Minister Tony Blair failed to receive parliamentary approval for his own plan to interrogate terrorist suspects for up to 90 days.

The British probe of a plot to destroy U.S.-bound jetliners with chemical explosions is the highest-profile case to be conducted under the new legislation.

Home Secretary John Reid, Britain's chief law-and-order official, acknowledged that some of the suspects would likely not be charged with major criminal offenses, but said there was mounting evidence of a "substantial nature" to back the allegations.

His comments came after he met with the French, German and Finnish interior ministers, Nicolas Sarkozy, Wolfgang Schaeuble and Kari Rajamaki, respectively, and EU Commission Vice President Franco Frattini. They later announced the allocation of $235,000 to research the best ways to detect liquid-based explosives.

Twenty-four suspects have been arrested in Britain in the liquid explosives plot and as many as 17 people in Pakistan, including alleged ringleader Rashid Rauf. British national Rauf's 22-year-old brother, Tayib, is among those in British custody. Those detained in Britain whose assets were frozen range in age from 17 to 35.

Two top Pakistani intelligence agents said Wednesday that the would-be bombers wanted to carry out an al-Qaida-style attack to mark the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11 strikes, but were too "inexperienced" to carry out the plot.

The two senior agents, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that if the terror cell members arrested in Pakistan and Britain had appropriate weapons and explosives training, they could have emulated massive attacks like those five years ago in New York and Washington as well as the July 7, 2005, London bombings.

The detainees in Britain and Pakistan had not attended terror-training camps in Pakistan or Afghanistan and had relied on information gleaned from text books on how to make bombs, the officials said.

Their comments offer a different perspective from that given by U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. "Certainly in terms of the complexity, the sophistication, the international dimension and the number of people involved, this plot has the hallmarks of an al-Qaida-type plot," Chertoff said Friday.

The Pakistani officials said Rashid Rauf met with al-Qaida figures inside Pakistan before his arrest last week.

They said Rauf, a British national of Pakistani descent in his 30s, had also been in contact _ through intermediaries _ with the purported No. 3-ranked al-Qaida leader at large in neighboring Afghanistan. The officials declined to give the al-Qaida leader's name.

Meanwhile, air service nudged closer to normal at major London airports, but British Airways said it canceled 35 flights from Heathrow and another 11 at Gatwick.

There was new concern about security after a 12-year-old boy managed to board a plane at Gatwick Airport on Monday without a passport, ticket or boarding pass. He was detected by cabin crew and removed before the flight took off. Authorities said he went through a full security screening before boarding the flight and he didn't pose a threat at any time.
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Drum says it better than I can...

"Mounting" evidence? Shouldn't we already have lots of evidence after over a year of intensive surveillance? WTF is going on here? And then there's this:

Two top Pakistani intelligence agents said Wednesday that the would-be bombers wanted to carry out an al-Qaida-style attack to mark the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11 strikes, but were too "inexperienced" to carry out the plot.

The two senior agents, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that if the terror cell members arrested in Pakistan and Britain had appropriate weapons and explosives training, they could have emulated massive attacks like those five years ago in New York and Washington as well as the July 7, 2005, London bombings.

Sure, and if I had an IQ of 200 and a PhD in oncology maybe I could find a cure for cancer. But since I don't, no one should stay up nights waiting for me to produce one. Likewise, there are lots of dimwit copycats who'd like to be the next Osama bin Laden, but they're not worth more than a routine roundup unless they have the serious operational capacity to do something about it. These guys, on the contrary, "had not attended terror-training camps in Pakistan or Afghanistan and had relied on information gleaned from text books on how to make bombs."

So: was this a serious conspiracy? Or was it like the plot to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge that turned out to be a mentally disturbed dude with a blowtorch? Or the financial district alert in New York City that turned out to be based on information more than three years old? Or the plot to blow up the Sears Tower that turned out to be "more aspirational than operational"? Or Jose Padilla? What news about this plot are we going to discover buried on page A13 a couple of weeks from now?

I won't pretend to know what to think about the way this has been handled. Was it about winning elections? Building public support for draconian security legislation? Plain old bureaucratic incompetence?

Or was it real?

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
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rimrocker · Aug 17, 2006

More from Drum...

BINARY EXPLOSIVES....Here's what Time had to say last week about the mechanics of the airline bombing plot:

Their plan was to smuggle the peroxide-based liquid explosive TATP and detonators onto nine different planes from four carriers....

[According to the FBI,] "TATP was popularized as a main charge explosive in suicide bombs used by Palestinian terrorist groups." Ramzi Yousef, who was convicted in 1996 for plotting to simultaneously bomb up to a dozen U.S. commercial airliners flying in the Far East, had manufactured TATP detonators....More recently, British shoe bomber Richard Reid tried to detonate his device with TATP as the initiator.

In other words, TATP is dangerous stuff. But the airline bombers weren't planning to take TATP aboard their flights. They were planning to take its liquid precursors on board and then mix them together while the plane was in the air. That's why we're not allowed to pack gels or liquids in our carry-on bags anymore.

So: just how easy is it to mix up those precursors and blow up a plane? The Register's Thomas Greene provides would-be terrorists with their marching orders:

Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them.

It's best to fly first class and order Champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate — especially if you have those cold gel-packs handy to supplement the ice, and the Styrofoam chiller handy for insulation — to get you through the cookery without starting a fire in the lavvie.

Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else.

After a few hours — assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities — you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.

The genius of this scheme is that TATP is relatively easy to detonate. But you must make enough of it to crash the plane, and you must make it with care to assure potency. One needs quality stuff to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale," as Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson put it. While it's true that a slapdash concoction will explode, it's unlikely to do more than blow out a few windows. At best, an infidel or two might be killed by the blast, and one or two others by flying debris as the cabin suddenly depressurizes, but that's about all you're likely to manage under the most favorable conditions possible.

There's more at the link. The good news is that it will make you feel a little more confident about the safety of flying overseas. The bad news is that it will make you feel a little less confident about the terror announcements of our national governments. Caveat emptor.
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http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/

FranchiseBlade · Aug 17, 2006

I am glad they arrested these guys even if they weren't capable of carrying out the mission. That article on TATP was pretty humerous.

I don't mind law enforcement being vigilant, and working hard to stop attacks before they happen.

What I do mind is the over stressing of the actual dangers by the administration. This isn't the only case where they have done this, but it gets old. I think most people remember 9/11. We all are very aware how serious the matter is. By being dishonest in their portrayal of what happened they actually risk people not taking warnings seriously.

It isn't hard. Just give the people the facts. Don't hype them to sell some preconcieved poicy, just give the people the facts, and then make policy approprate to the actual facts.

rimrocker · Aug 17, 2006

Good points FB... here's Keith on 8/14...

OLBERMANN: The term we employ is the nexus of politics and terror. It does not imply that there is no terror, but it also does not deny that there is politics. And it refuses to assume that counterterror measures in this country are not being influenced by politics.

Our third story on the COUNTDOWN, the basis of all this, at heart, are remarks made on May 10, 2005, by a former Bush administration official discussing the old color-coded terror threat warning system. More often than not, he said, "We were the least inclined to raise it. Sometimes we disagreed with the intelligence assessment, sometimes we thought even if the intelligence was good, you don‘t necessarily put the country on alert. There were times when some people were really aggressive about raising it. And we said, 'For that?'"

The speaker was the first Secretary of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge. In the light of those remarks and his criticism this week of the vice president for politicizing terror in the context of the Connecticut senatorial primary, it is imperative that we examine each of the coincidences of timing since 2002, including the one last week in which excoriating comments by leading Republicans about leading Democrats just happened to precede arrests in a vast purported terror plot, arrests that we now know were carried out on a timeline requested not by British, nor necessitated by the evidence, but requested by this government.

We introduce these coincidences to you exactly as we did when we first compiled this top 10 list after the revelation that the announced threats New York‘s subway system, last October, had been wildly overblown. And we do so by reminding you and ourselves, here, that perhaps the simplest piece of wisdom in the world is called "the logic fallacy." Just because event A occurred and then event B occurs, that does not automatically mean that event A caused event B. But neither does it say the opposite. The "Nexus of Politics and Terror," please judge for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): No. 1, May 18, 2002, the first details of the president‘s daily briefing of August 6, 2001 are revealed, including its title "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in U.S." The same day another memo is discovered revealing the FBI knew of men with links to al Qaeda training at an Arizona flight school. The memo was never acted upon. Questions about 9/11 intelligence failures are swirling.

May 20, 2002:

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The terror warnings from the highest levels of the federal government, tonight are...

OLBERMANN: Two days later, FBI Director Mueller declares that another terrorist attack is "inevitable."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight there are even more warnings...

OLBERMANN: The next day, the department of Homeland Security issues warnings of attacks against railroads nationwide and against New York City landmarks, like the Brooklyn Bridge and the Statue of Liberty.

No. 2, Thursday, June 6, 2002...

COLEEN ROWLEY, FBI AGENT: I never really anticipated this kind of impact.

OLBERMANN: Coleen Rowley, the FBI agent who tried to alert her superiors to the specialized flight training taken by Zacarias Moussaoui, who‘s information suggests the government missed a chance to break up the 9/11 plot, testifies before Congress. Senate Committee Chair Graham says, Rowley‘s testimony has inspired similar pre-9/11 whistleblowers.

Monday June 10, 2002, four days later...

JOHN ASHCROFT, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We have disrupted an unfolding terrorist plot.

OLBERMANN: Speaking from Russia, Attorney General John Ashcroft reveals that an American named Jose Padilla is under arrest, accused to plotting a radiation bomb attack in this country. In fact, Padilla had, by this time, already been detained for more than one month.

No. 3, February 5, 2003, Secretary of State Powell tells the United Nations Security Council of Iraq‘s concealment of weapons including 18 mobile biological weapons laboratories, justifying a U.N. or U.S. first strike, many in the U.N. are doubtful. Months later, much of the information proves untrue.

February 7, 2003, two days later, as anti-war demonstrations continue to take place around the globe.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Take some time to prepare for an emergency...

OLBERMANN: Homeland Security Secretary Ridge cites credible threats by al Qaeda and raises the terror alert level to orange. Three days after that, Fire Administrator David Paulison, who would become the acting head of FEMA after the Hurricane Katrina disaster, advises Americans to stock up on plastic sheeting and duct tape to protect themselves against radiological or biological attack.

No. 4, July 23, 2003, the White House admits that the CIA, months before the president‘s State of the Unions Address, expressed strong doubts about the claim that Iraq had attempted to buy uranium from Niger.

On the 24th the Congressional report on the 9/11 attacks is issued. It criticizes government at all levels. It reveals an FBI informant had been living with two of the future highjackers. It concludes that Iraq had no link to al Qaeda. Twenty-eight pages of the report are redacted.

On the 26th, American troops are accused of the beating Iraqi prisoners.

July 29, 2003, three days later, amid all of the negative headlines...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Word of a new possible al Qaeda attack...

OLBERMANN: Homeland Security issues warnings of terrorist attempts to use airplanes for suicide attacks.

No. 5, December 17, 2003, 9/11 Commission Co-Chair Thomas Kean says the attacks were preventable. The next day, a federal appeals court says the government cannot detain suspected radiation bomber Jose Padilla indefinitely without charges and the chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, Dr. David Kay, who has previously announced he has found no weapons of mass destruction there, announces he will resign his post.

December 21, 2003, four days later, the Sunday before Christmas...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today the United States government raised the national threat level.

Homed Land Security, again, raises the threat level to orange, claiming credible intelligence of further plots to crash airliners into U.S cities. Subsequently six international flights into this country are canceled after some passenger names purportedly produced matches on government "No-Fly" lists. The French later identified those matched names, one belongs to an insurance salesman from Wales, another to an elderly Chinese woman, a third to a 5-year-old boy.

No. 6, March 30, 2004 the new chief weapons inspector in Iraq, Charles Duelfer, tells Congress "we have still not found any WMD in that country" and after weeks of having refused to appear before the 9/11 Commission, Condoleezza Rice relents, and agrees to testify.

On the 31st, four Blackwater USA contractors working in Iraq are murdered, their mutilated bodies dragged through the streets and left on public display in Fallujah. The roll of civilian contractors in Iraq is now widely questioned.

April 2, 2004...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI Has issued a new warning tonight...

OLBERMANN: Homeland Security issues a bulletin warning that terrorists may try to blow up buses and trains using fertilizer and fuel bombs, like the one detonated in Oklahoma City. Bombs stuffed into satchels or duffle bags.

No. 7, May 16, 2004, Secretary of State Powell, appears on "Meet the Press." Moderator Tim Russert closes by asking about the enormous personal credibility Powell had placed before the U.N. in laying out a case against Saddam Hussein. An aide to Powell interrupts the question saying the interview is over.

TIM RUSSERT, "MEET THE PRESS": I think that was one of your staff Mr. Secretary. I don‘t think that‘s appropriate.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Get—Emily, get out of the way.

OLBERMANN: Powell finishes his answer, admitting that much of the information he had been given about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was

POWELL: ...inaccurate and wrong and in some cases deliberately misleading.

OLBERMANN: On the 21st, new photos showing mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison are released.

On the 24th "Associated Press" video, from Iraq, confirms U.S. Forces mistakenly bombed a wedding party, killing more than 40.

Wednesday May 26, 2004, two days later...

ASHCROFT: Good afternoon

OLBERMANN: Attorney General Ashcroft and FBI Director Mueller warned that intelligence from multiple sources...

ASHCROFT: Indicates al Qaeda‘s specific intention to hit the United States' heart.

OLBERMANN: And that 90 percent of the arrangement for an attack on the United States were complete. The color coded warning system is not raised. The Homeland Security secretary, Tom Ridge, does not attend the announcement.

No. 8, July 6, 2004, Democratic presidential candidate, John Kerry selects John Edwards as his vice presidential running mate producing a small bump in the election opinion polls and producing a huge swing in media attention toward the Democratic campaign.

July 8, 2004, two days later...

RIDGE: Credible reporting now indicates that al Qaeda is moving forward with its plans to carry out a large-scale attack in the United States...

OLBERMANN: Homeland Secretary Ridge warns of information about al Qaeda attacks during the summer or autumn. Four days after that, the head of the U.S. Election Assistance Commission, DeForest Soaries Jr. confirms he has written to Ridge about the prospect of postponing the upcoming president election in the event it is intercepted by terrorist acts.

No. 9, July 29, 2004, at their party convention in Boston, the Democrats formally nominate John Kerry as their candidate for president. As in the wake of any convention the Democrats now dominate the media attention over the subsequent weekend.

August 1, 2004, Monday morning, three days later.

RIDGE: It is as reliable as source—group of sources that we‘ve ever seen before.

OLBERMANN: The department of Homeland Security raises the alert status for financial centers in New York, New Jersey, and Washington to orange. The evidence supporting the warning, reconnaissance data left in a home in Iraq. Later proves to be roughly four years old and largely out of date.

No. 10, October 6, 2005, 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time, the president addresses the National Endowment for Democracy, once again emphasizing the importance of the war on terror and insisting his government has broken up at least 10 terrorist plots since 9/11.

At 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time, five hours after the president‘s speech had begun, the "Associated Press" reports that Karl Rove will testify again to the CIA leak grand jury and that Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald has told Rove he cannot guaranteed that he will not be indicted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We‘re awaiting a news conference at the bottom of the hour...

OLBERMANN: At 5:00 17 p.m. Eastern Time, seven hours after the president‘s speech has begun, New York officials disclose a bomb threat to the city‘s subway system, based on information supplied by the federal government. A Homeland Security spokesman says the intelligence upon which the disclosure is based is of "doubtful credibility." And it later proves that New York City had known of the threat for at least three days and had increased police presence in the subways long before making the announcement at that particular time.

Local New York television station WNBC reports it had the story of the threats days in advance of the announcement, but was asked by high ranking federal officials in New York and Washington to hold off on its story. Less than four days after having revealed the threat, Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York says, "Since the period of the threat now seems to be passing, I think over the immediate future we will be slowly be winding down the enhanced security." While news organizations ranging from the "New York Post" to NBC NEWS, quotes sources who say there were reasons to believe the informant who triggered the warning simply made up. A senior U.S. counter-terrorism official tells the "New York Times," "there was no there, there."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

In all fairness, as we observe last October and we observer again tonight, we could possibly construct a similar timeline of terror events and warnings and their relationship to the opening of new chain stores around the country. But if merely a reasonable case could be made that any of these juxtapositions of events are more than just coincidences, especially the one last week in which terror policy was again injected directly into a political race, it underscores the need for questions to be asked in this country, questions about what is prudence and what is fear-mongering.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Olbermann_The_Nexus_of_politics_and_0815.html
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adoo · Aug 27, 2006

Sir Jackie Chiles said:

The guys who were caught th by the Brits = terrorists
Hezbollah = terrorists.
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bin Laden and Al Queda = terrorists

Saddam = former CIA operative against the Iranians and ruthless dictator of Iraq who dispises bin Laden

The Iraq invasion / occupation is separate and distinct from the war on terrorism. The current Iraqi government has shown its tacit approval of Hezbollah.

The US has committed over $ Billion / day for 3+ years and > 2,000 lives to-date supporting a gov that supports Hezbollah

DaDakota · Aug 27, 2006

adoo said:

bin Laden and Al Queda = terrorists

Saddam = former CIA operative against the Iranians and ruthless dictator of Iraq who dispises bin Laden

The Iraq invasion / occupation is separate and distinct from the war on terrorism. The current Iraqi government has shown its tacit approval of Hezbollah.

The US has committed over $ Billion / day for 3+ years and > 2,000 lives to-date supporting a gov that supports Hezbollah

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No doubt...Bush is an idiot.

DD

canoner2002 · Aug 27, 2006

DaDakota said:

No doubt...Bush is an idiot.

DD
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I realized it a long time ago!

Suppose Bush could run another reelection, do you think he would still get Texas? I am afraid he would.

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